#55 – Shonky Stiver Stultiloquence

Chris Gammell: Welcome to the Amp Hour.

Dave Jones: I'm Dave Jones from the EEV Blog.

Chris Gammell: And I'm Chris Gammell from Chris Gammell's Analog Life.

Dave Jones: Hey, no one else there this week, Chris?

Chris Gammell: Oh, no, no, I don't think so, Dave.

Dave Jones: No, I think everyone's abandoned us.

Chris Gammell: Okay, well, just us.

Dave Jones: No special guests, sorry. Empty nest.

Chris Gammell: Yep. Sorry, guys.

Dave Jones: So, dude, what's happened with your economy? Dude, you've lost your AAA credit rating.

Chris Gammell: I didn't do it. It was the bankers and the politicians, I swear.

Dave Jones: Bastards.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: A lonely AA+. Oh, I'm doing the big L symbol on the forehead, you know?

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: Yep, we'll see. After they just cobbled together that package, you know, that package to save everything, then they go and downgrade you anyway.

Chris Gammell: Yep, yeah. I figured I was going to have... I mean, we don't need to talk about politics on here.

Chris Gammell: I really hope it doesn't hurt the economy. Like, you know, the electronics industry was doing pretty good, I thought. I don't know what you've seen from Australia, but, I mean... I've seen some...

Dave Jones: It started to pick up again. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: It started to look a lot better. I mean, like, I've seen hiring notices all over the place. I've seen, you know, sales go up from different companies. And, you know, it's just... I hate it, because I think it is going to affect everyone. It always does. The money always affects everyone, so...

Dave Jones: Well, exactly.

Chris Gammell: It's just... That's what the world runs on, unfortunately. Well, it feels like the whole world's run on confidence, and now it's like... Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're the nerd at the school dance, you know?

Chris Gammell: It's like, oh, what are we going to do? I don't know. Should I ask her to dance? I shouldn't buy any capital equipment.

Chris Gammell: You know, it's like, that sucks. Come on, guys. It's like, yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I know. It's bad. I saw there was some news report. I didn't delve into it, but it said this thing could hurt startups and stuff like that. Startups getting capital and things, because it costs more to borrow money now.

Chris Gammell: So, you know? Well, and that's if they're doing the traditional route of borrowing money. I mean, so that means it'll be more dependent on, like, the angel investment and VC-type funding.

Dave Jones: Well, a lot of the angel investments will borrow money. They're not dumb enough to use their own money. They'll borrow it from someone else. They're smart cookies.

Chris Gammell: Really? I always assumed... I don't think they put their own... I always assumed it was their own money. I mean, that's kind of how I think of angel investing.

Dave Jones: Well, yeah, you kind of assume that, but then you think about it, and, well, nobody ever uses their own cash. I know companies that are actually, that don't have any debt, and they have cash, yet they'll borrow money to pay for something. You know? Unless, of course, like, you're a huge Google or something like that, and you've got, you know, $50 billion on Apple, and you've got $50 billion of cash in the bank, and you need to dispose of it, because having cash is actually a liability. In huge business, cash is almost a liability, because you're not earning enough money on that cash. So, you know, you're not earning enough return. The shareholders don't stand for it. Oh, you've got cash. We don't like that. Spend it so that you can, you know, make more money than your 5%.

Chris Gammell: I think, no, I think we're both talking out of our bums here. Right, mate. I think you're wrong, Dave. Well, it does have its good points and its bad points.

Dave Jones: No, but seriously, you always read that.

Dave Jones: You always read, oh, Google's or Apple's got so much cash they don't know what to do with, and they need to invest it somewhere. They need to spend it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: So, yeah. I think it's a good problem to have, but, yeah, apparently, you know, shareholders and countries, even, who have to show growth, you know? Hmm. I still don't understand that concept. I'm sorry. The country has to grow like a business 10% each year. Otherwise, you know.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. The country's screwed. And it's unsustainable. The reason I said this about angel investors, I can link you an article here. There's an article from the guy that created Gmail from Google, right? His name's Paul Bukite. Right. And he's got an article about his first three years of angel investing. He wrote it earlier this year. And he says it is his money, but he's very cognizant of the fact that it's probably going to go. It's probably not coming back.

Dave Jones: Right. I got you.

Chris Gammell: Exactly. So, I mean, and like all the companies he lists that he invested in, they must be so tiny that, you know, they're hoping to get gobbled up or something. You know, it's all software stuff, too. Yeah, yeah. It's all these little companies that get bought up. But, yeah, I mean, I could see that would hurt startups. So, you know, if they're going traditional route, then they'll have to go to the Kickstarters of the world or the angel investors of the world, the Paul Bukites of the world. So, yeah. Right. That does suck. Yeah. What can you do? I saw an article in, did you see that Wired article? The one about the DIY hitting mainstream? There is an article about that.

Dave Jones: No, there's another one. Oh, okay. It wasn't there one just a while back. Amor was on the front cover. She was, you know, on the front cover with her drill of Wired magazine. That's right. That wasn't that long ago, I don't think.

Chris Gammell: This actually – Well, this is referencing to that. And it says – basically what the guy is claiming. It's Tim Karmody. He says, big DIY, the year the maker movement broke. And what he's saying – and then they actually quote Phil Terone in there, too, who's with Adafruit II, if people don't know. They think that this is going to be the year that a lot of money pours in and that a lot of things start changing. And I was actually talking to John Janier, who's another guy that works at Adafruit.

Dave Jones: Oh, I thought they were only a two-person operation.

Chris Gammell: Well, he just blogs for them. But we were just talking on Twitter today about this article and actually a reaction piece to it. So, man, I'm bouncing all over the place here. There's a reaction piece called Makers and Breakers. And basically it was a reaction piece to this Wired article saying that maybe this DIY going mainstream isn't the best thing. So I said I was going to expound upon it. So –

Dave Jones: That reminds me of my sport geocaching, actually, that I haven't done for quite some time. But I was heavily involved in that. And that was – similar sort of – I don't know if it's a similar parallel, but I'll tell the story anyway. Back when it first started, right, in 2000, right, everyone wanted to get the word out there, spread this wonderful sport geocaching, right? And we all tried to get articles in magazines and all sorts of stuff. And then it kind of backfired. Then people kind of started thinking, oh, no, we kind of liked it small and private and secret. You know, it was our own secret little world. And sort of then they tried to start, you know, staying low, actually laying low again. Because all these people were pouring in and, you know, the quality of caches went down. And it wasn't – it didn't have that special feel anymore, you know, that it was a – and it just went too commercial. And same thing. Like some commercial companies tried to step in and, you know, try to do very commercial things with it. And everyone went, oh, no, we don't like this. And, yeah. So there was a big battle to –

Chris Gammell: No, that's a really good example. That's a really good example.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And I could see the same thing happening here. I mean, they're talking about, you know, money coming in from venture. There's interest. And it's kind of hard because you look at, like, the DIY revolution versus, like, the open source hardware. Because those aren't really two different things and yet they're really closely joined, right? So open source hardware versus – They're intimate at the tide, yeah. Yeah. I mean, people have been, you know, building their own stuff for a long time. But open source hardware is a new concept, right? So where do you draw that line? But, you know, they're just talking about a lot of money coming in basically. And, you know, companies growing bigger. SparkFun, Adafruit, MakerBot, all these are companies that are growing bigger. So the culture kind of changes with it that, you know, to get bigger audiences, you have to go more mainstream, right? So that's kind of this Contrary article saying, well, if it gets bigger, you have to target the masses. So it has to get dumbed down. And that's kind of the argument against it. Yeah. And it sounds like a very similar thing.

Dave Jones: And we've talked about this on here before. I'm not sure when. That was early. But we've mentioned on here before that, well, you know, these companies like your Artifruits and your SparkFun, once they get big enough, they'll start gobbling each other up as well. And then, you know, that's not necessarily such a good thing. Yeah. So all they'll get bought out, you know. Look, like the biggest one in the industry, SparkFun, right? They're pretty much one of the biggest in this sort of industry. You know, if somebody, if a huge organization came along and offered to buy them out, I wouldn't blame the guy for selling. You know, seriously. I mean, you know, if they offered, you know, they're a $10 million, what, $10, $15 million a year business. So, you know, the company's probably worth, you know, $20, $30 million at least or something like that. Yeah, based on growth and everything else. Two times, yeah, you know, growth and two times your yearly thing. And, well, would you turn down that sort of money if you were offered that? I mean, shit, you know. And then, as you say, the whole thing changes, you know, the culture changes and everything else. So it's a tough business if you grow. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And, you know, an example that John gave on Twitter today was HP as like a parallel. Obviously, a much grander scale eventually, right? So HP has gotten huge. It went into computers and now part of them is Agilent. But when you started having this, whenever, anytime you grow, anytime any business grows, you know, Google has these same kind of growing pains. You don't get to have those close interactions. There's not as much local control. So Bill and Dave, they didn't have as much local control as the company got much bigger. Like there's a story in the biography I read. Basically, they used to go around and hand out paychecks to their employees. Yes. Yeah, that's right. They would shake everyone's hand.

Dave Jones: Well, they'd hand out the bonus checks. That's what I meant. Sorry.

Chris Gammell: Like holiday bonuses. Yeah. And so they wanted to do that. And eventually, they just got too big. And that's just a small indication, obviously. But, you know, anytime that an industry gets that big, there's going to be some kind of – basically, it becomes like layers of abstraction. You know, the guy that's in charge of all of the revenue for the company, the CEO, can't necessarily decide, you know, what resistors they should be using in their, you know, best-selling products, right? That's just a thing. And if the guy that started the company in this case, right, Bill or Dave, if they're the ones that just made the good engineering decisions that, you know, got the products to where they were so that the company could grow, well, it's kind of this like paradox of, well, now – sorry. You're in charge now, buddy. So, it's – yeah, it's tough, but – It's tough? I think it's – But, well, yeah, but – What are you going to do, right?

Dave Jones: I mean – I don't like to use the inevitable word, you know. Yeah. But, yeah, maybe it is. I don't know. And speaking of open source hardware, I have a rant. Oh, okay. Rant of the week. Do we have music for rant of the week?

Chris Gammell: No, Dave. There's no music.

Dave Jones: Oh.

Speaker ?: Man.

Chris Gammell: You're the music man, dude. You're the musician. I'm never doing music again. You'll never hear music from me again. Bummer. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Or is that a good thing?

Chris Gammell: You'll have to tell me eventually. No, I'm sure you're quite good at it. Yeah.

Dave Jones: All right. Anyway, let's hear a rant. Rant of the week.

Chris Gammell: So, this is –

Dave Jones: I was looking at this – sorry, I've got to mention Arduino. I was looking at this Arduino spin-off called the Pinguino. P-I-N-G-U-I-N-O. And it's a PIC32 version of the Arduino. It's not like the – well, kind of like the Chipkit 32, the new, you know, Chipkit 32, which is a – I guess there's multiple versions now of PIC32-bit Arduino clones.

Chris Gammell: Didn't it just come out? Didn't that happen like a couple months ago even?

Dave Jones: Chipkit 1, yeah. We talked about it on here a month or two back. I think two months ago or something.

Speaker ?: Oh, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Is Arduino no longer a swear word? Is that why you were all careful about it?

Dave Jones: Well, I don't know. We do talk about Arduino a lot on here. We haven't talked about it in a while. Yeah, I know. But some people do take us to task.

Chris Gammell: I think you've got to bring it up whenever open source hardware comes up, though. I think it's a relevant example whenever it comes up.

Dave Jones: It is the biggest example of open source hardware, so you can't not bring it up, really. I mean, it's the shining example.

Chris Gammell: Right.

Dave Jones: Anyway, I was looking at that. I was looking to play around with that for a reason I probably won't go into at this stage. Anyway, I was looking at that, and I went to their website, which is pinguino.cc. Okay? And they proudly display down the bottom of the page. There it is. Open source and the open hardware. You know, they've got the little symbols you can get, you know, the official little symbols and all that sort of stuff.

Chris Gammell: Mm-hmm.

Dave Jones: And I thought, great. Okay. I was looking for the files, like the Eagle files, the PCB and the schematic files, so I could modify this thing. And no. Do you think I can find the PCB and the schematic files? No. I can find the source code. No problems at all. Well, I think, like the, you know, the desktop, you know, the IDE kind of source code and stuff like that. But there's no PCB and schematic files.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: And it gets worse, right? If you look at the PIC32 Pinguino, which is sold by Olamex, okay, which is a company which make, I think it's a Bulgarian company. I think they're in Bulgaria. Yeah. So somewhere like that, anyway.

Chris Gammell: Wait a second, wait a second, wait a second. So this is a, the company Pinguino has a...

Dave Jones: No, no, Pinguino is not the company. That's just the name of the boards.

Chris Gammell: Oh, okay. Of the build. Okay.

Dave Jones: That's just the name of the project. I gotcha. Okay. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And there's two versions. There's a little, there's an 8-bit PIC version and there's a PIC32-bit version. And I wanted the PIC32-bit version. I wanted the PCB and the schematic files, please. This is open hardware. I should be able to just download them straight from their download page. And I couldn't find anything. Then I opened, they did have a link to the schematic for it. And great. Okay. I'll have a look at the schematic. And in the bottom corner, there it is. It's got copyright 2011 Olimax Limited. Since when do you put copyright on an open source product, right? Open source hardware product. And then I checked the PCB on the silkscreen. Copyright. Olimax Limited. What's going on? That's my question. That's my rant for today. What is going on here? Are people starting to use the open source thing willy-nilly and then not actually doing the right thing and giving away their PCB and schematic files as they should be? Are they trying to keep the market to themselves? Corner the market? I don't know. I may be wrong here. I don't want to say that they're doing anything evil yet. Maybe I'm just dumb enough that I can't find the files. I'm trying to find them too.

Chris Gammell: I haven't found them yet, but maybe.

Dave Jones: Well, yeah. They've got a download. There's not many pages on the website. There's a download page and they ain't there. And I've asked on the forum and nobody's replied yet. So anyway, that's the question for today. Hmm. What's this Pinguino stuff anyhow? Yeah. And I think that has been coming up more.

Chris Gammell: Bob Pease there. Yeah. Bob Pease. Yep.

Dave Jones: What's all this Pinguino stuff anyhow?

Chris Gammell: I don't think he was doing Pinguino stuff to be honest or Arduino or any Wino stuff. Yes.

Dave Jones: It could almost be a what the segment as well.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Which we don't have any music for either. I've heard about that. You know, that there's been kind of a open source hardware washing, like a whitewashing almost of open source hardware products where you can't necessarily, you know, people are just calling it open source hardware just to call it open source hardware saying, oh, well.

Dave Jones: Exactly. I'm giving away part of it.

Chris Gammell: Why not? Right?

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. They think that just giving away the software is enough to call it that. But no, open source hardware is a very, very specific thing. You must give away your PCB and schematic files. Here I am just a couple of weeks ago where we're talking about me worrying about which package I should use because, oh, if I do an open source hardware product and I release my files in Altium, oh, I feel really bad, you know, because I'm not, you know, giving it in the right format. Well, here is potentially people not giving it at all. So, well, you know, maybe they just haven't gotten around to it yet. Maybe it was copyrighted and then they decided to go open source and they just possibly haven't gotten around to it. Maybe I will give them the benefit of the doubt. Yeah. And that's always an option too. Well, as far as I know, it's been out for a couple, it's been out for a long time, this ping, this, this thing. So...

Chris Gammell: Well, what's a long time? I mean, it's new. Open source hardware hasn't been out that long either. So, I mean, like at least the...

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, but, you know, but it came from the original Arduino thing. So, you know, Arduino has been around for a long time now.

Chris Gammell: I don't know. I think that... Anyway. I think that's kind of self-correcting because if people can't get at the files, they're just not going to develop it anymore unless it's some ridiculously low-priced thing that everybody wants to buy.

Dave Jones: No, but you see, they... But that's the thing with open source hardware, right? A very, very small percentage of people will actually want to modify it, right? For their own purposes. Most people will just go, in this case, to Olimex and buy the board. And you can have a massively popular product that's spread like a virus. Everyone's using it. But only, you know, one person in every thousand is going to want to download these PCB and schematic files, right? In their original format. So, you can have a winning... That doesn't mean, just because you don't release them, doesn't mean that the product's going to fail. But...

Chris Gammell: Well, I agree. I mean, I know the short term, but...

Dave Jones: The spirit of it is that, oh, maybe in the long term, but still, you can have, you can still make a shitload of money off a product. And, you know, nobody is... And you'll still sell these things, right?

Chris Gammell: I think...

Dave Jones: Even though you haven't met the...

Chris Gammell: I don't think a bunch of money will be made on this thing, honestly.

Speaker ?: But...

Chris Gammell: I don't know. I think they've sold quite a few of them.

Dave Jones: But anyway, yeah. It certainly could. Because very few... But that's the whole spirit and ethos behind open source hardware, is that you must give away your PCB and schematic files, and the bomb as well, and give as much information as possible.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: But yeah, is it sneaking in here that people think, you know, they're just jumping on the bandwagon?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: And think it's good enough. Oh, the software's open source. Isn't that good enough? You know?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That's interesting you say... End rant. You say ethos, because that's actually another thing from that article, the makers and breakers article, the contrarian point to the Wired article. Basically, the guy says, when the money flows in, the ethos flows out. And he uses that exact same phrase.

Chris Gammell: Right. Okay.

Chris Gammell: Those with the least to lose always take the most risks. And when the money starts flowing to that chosen few, the result is flabby navel gazing from them, and not entirely unjustified, but very human resentment from those who get left behind because they stuck to the code and didn't sell out.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: Yep. Yeah. And so, I think that's kind of the crux of his argument. You know, it's just... Money complicates things. You know, it's a realistic thing. Money complicates... Of course. ...a lot of stuff. Relationships, business arrangements between friends, right? I mean, like, these are... Yeah, of course. Yeah. So...

Dave Jones: Well, I'm not struggling with this at the moment, but I am now a full-time video blogger, right? As everyone knows, I make my living now from the ads on my website. And, you know, I... You know, it... I don't think it's changed me in any way. I've had ads on there from day one. So, you know, really, but... I don't know. I'm... You know, I guess I just have to be careful there. Yeah. That it doesn't change me. Then again, I'm of the nature that I'll shoot myself in the foot financially before I, you know... Yeah, you will. I'm just too much of a loudmouth, you know.

Speaker ?: I'll...

Dave Jones: Yeah, you are. Even though somebody's, you know... Somebody's, you know, generating half my revenue in ads or whatever, and I'll say their product's shit just because I can't help myself, you know. So, yeah, I like that. But anyway. Yeah. Yeah. Got to be careful. It's hard. I can certainly imagine. Interesting. Olimex. Not at the top of my list at the moment. They need to redeem themselves here or come back and call me an idiot because I can't find the download.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Take an image of the website just so they don't stick it up there and say, oh, no, I was there the whole time. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway, I'm calling them out. Yeah. I want an explanation.

Chris Gammell: So, speaking of money and Wired articles, too, there was a Wired article a couple weeks back. I had a bunch of stuff on the list, actually, to talk about last week, and then we had that great conversation with Jack Gantel, which went awesome. Thanks again to Jack. Yes.

Dave Jones: Thank you, Jack.

Chris Gammell: But basically, the US government, through the National Science Foundation, is giving a bunch of money to go start companies. Kind of in the same vein of what we're talking about here. So, this is another potential path, but now, if you're an entrepreneur in the US and you want a chunk of this money, now you actually have to be in a program or a graduate program, I think, even, is what they're targeting.

Dave Jones: Oh, right. Okay. So, you've got to be doing a master's or something like that. PhD. Which is a graduate program, right? Master's slash PhD.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Basically, yeah. So, it's basically the government. I mean, this is from the article. I'm trying to be like Y Combinator, which is another. It's actually that Paul Buchheit guy that I was mentioning before. He's part of Y Combinator, too, which is like a startup engine for small companies. So, now, the US government is trying to do the same thing in schools and saying, well, why not just instead of sending these kids to graduate school for business, why not just have them start a company? And I don't know about you. I mean, I think it's a good idea, but I don't know if it's, I don't know if hanging your hat on just having people start based on grants and everything, starting companies.

Dave Jones: Most of them are going to fail. That's a given, surely. Yeah. That's a, yep. They'll just piss that money away like there's no tomorrow, you know. Woo-hoo! Spend like drunken sailors. Oh, wow. Maybe. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I don't know about that, but I'm sure there's, you know, they have to be accountable for it, but, uh...

Dave Jones: Yeah, but, you know, they just probably don't have that same drive as the true, you know, as the hobbyist in his garage, you know, the, you know, just working on, working on their stuff and every cent counts and, you know, all that sort of stuff. I don't think they're going to have the same drive as those kind of people. Yeah, that's an interesting point. The money's just handed to you, you know, and, and, you know, and these people are doing their masters and PhDs, so they're all going to think that they're all really smart and they're probably done, you know, who knows, they might have even done some business classes and think they know how to run it as a business and all that sort of stuff, and they'll, they'll just piss the money away, I'm sure. Anyway, I still think it's a good thing. It's not a bad thing. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean, money, money to any kind of government thing or government thing, uh, any kind of startup thing is good, right? But hopefully it, it's going to, uh, actually produce some jobs eventually too.

Dave Jones: Well, I don't mind my, well, even though I'm not a US taxpayer, I don't mind my tax dollars going towards stuff like that, right? Yeah. It's good. I'd rather see my money going towards that and sell other ridiculous bloody...

Chris Gammell: Well, we won't get you started on that.

Dave Jones: Pissing money up a tree thing, which I won't, you know, I won't mention various programs that governments piss away their money on, but yeah, the list is long and distinguished. Um, yeah, so I, I think it's a good thing. I'd love to see my money go towards stuff like that.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean, I think there's been some criticism of it, but I, I agree in general. It's, it's a good thing.

Dave Jones: So from who, who's, uh, who's actually criticizing?

Chris Gammell: I don't.

Dave Jones: Please don't tell me it's a couple of blog comments down the bottom. No, no.

Chris Gammell: Oh, where was it?

Dave Jones: Although I'm sure there's people in the blog comments. I'm sure there are too. Yeah. Having to dig, you know?

Speaker ?: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I can't find it. I'm sorry. Yes. The, uh, the blog comment, you know, signed by anonymous. Anonymous. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. I've actually seen other programs though too. So I've seen, and apparently, so this is, they're starting all over the country with this kind of thing, but Stanford and Michigan both actually have programs for entrepreneur ownership now. So it's interesting. The, uh, you know, they're, they're trying, they're trying to actually teach us stuff.

Dave Jones: I just want to get my groan out of the way there. Sorry. You know, can you teach that sort of shit? I don't know.

Chris Gammell: I, well, I was thinking there's, you can always teach kids how to, you know, make ramen a lot of different ways because that's kind of the startup thing, right? Making ramen noodles in there. Yeah.

Dave Jones: I do. As I always say, all you need is enthusiasm. Yeah. Enthusiasm and talent. Talent helps, you know, but, uh, enthusiasm, number one. Yeah. And well, do you need to go to school to learn that? I don't know.

Chris Gammell: I don't, I don't think, no, I don't think you can really be taught that necessarily. No.

Dave Jones: Exactly. And that's a key ingredient. So what are they learning? What are they learning in this entrepreneurial school?

Chris Gammell: Uh, let's see. So the, the one is from the University of Michigan. And who's teaching it? Uh, well, the article.

Dave Jones: Some stuffy professor with three PhDs who's never, who's never actually designed anything in, in their life.

Chris Gammell: No, I, I don't know about that. Um, I'm trying to find, so the article is written by Thomas Zrebukin. Uh, the guy, I, I, I've talked about him on here before actually, but actually, um, let's see, they, they say, uh, a successful entrepreneur, Don Graham, and he provided a bunch of funding and inspiration for the program. Trying to figure out who he is, but, uh. Oh.

Dave Jones: Here's one of these things, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: This is what I don't get about this, right? It's a, it's a, it's a, it's title is a master's in entrepreneurship, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: You would never, ever put that on your resume, right?

Chris Gammell: I would.

Dave Jones: You would never, you would not, you would look like the biggest wanker, right? Ever, like either that, either a total wanker or a total failure, right? You've done a master's in entrepreneurship and you want to come here and work for me. Like, you're a failure, dude. What happened, right? Either that or you're a wanker, right? You want to be an entrepreneur. So either you're not going to put it on your resume at all, or, or if you do put it on, you're an idiot. So how does that work? Why even, why not just have it as a class? Why would you even give out a certificate at the end of it saying you've got a master's? I, I don't understand that. I, I'm sorry. Yeah. I find that funny. It just dawned on me.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: I'm not sure why. Yeah. I guess. I don't see the point. Yeah. I guess if you put that on an application, right. Okay. The class itself might, might be useful, right? But to actually get a master's at the end of it, if you're going into your own business, it doesn't matter that you've got a master's.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. That's a good point. That's a good point.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Mm. So I, oh boy.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Epic fail there, I think. I know. Yeah. Well, I don't know. I mean, who, like you said. It might be a useful class, right? You would take it. Right. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: To do a master's in it. You know. And they're pairing with like a tech transfer office too. That's always a dicey part of like schools, right? And you know, when there's like.

Dave Jones: Tech transfer, as in with a company or something.

Chris Gammell: Well, you can, tech transfer can happen a couple of different ways, I think. But you know, they can either sell the IP. So like usually a school owns the IP because they help fund it.

Dave Jones: Oh, right. Okay.

Chris Gammell: So a school might, you know, someone's working on a PhD. They work on this research. They get a patent or they get, you know, something that actually belongs to the school. And then the school says, all right, well, we'll license this to you. And sometimes we'll even give you money to help you start it up. But then there's these terms attached. So in the same way. Right. They become like a early investor. And so a tech transfer office actually does a lot of that stuff. And so that's, at least the U of M program, that's part of the program. You know, they're working with this tech transfer office to try and get it cranking. Got it. Yeah. Stanford, I'm not sure. I'm sure Stanford is similar. I think, so I think I read that wrong earlier. I think Stanford actually is the one getting this $10 million, so the $50,000 per project or whatever. Oh, okay. So, oh, man. It's modeled after Stanford, but I think Stanford's also tied into it, this $10 million grant from the government. Oh, man. Oh, money. Money, exactly.

Dave Jones: Hey, how about a bit of fun? Yeah, let's get out of this shit. After all that, we've had this one on the list for quite some time. I mentioned it on Twitter. I started out probably a month ago now. What cool electronic car number plates have you seen? As in the letters. Yeah. Right? I've seen LMC 555. Have you really? I've seen that driving around. I have. Nice. And I just thought, that is cool. And I bet you they don't even know, right? It's not a personalized number plate. Oh, really? That's just a standard plate here because you get three letters and three numbers. That's a standard license plate. Oh, that sounds like a vanity plate. So, it's not actually a personalized number plate. Yeah. No, no, no. It's not here. So, you could get that as just a standard number plate. And they obviously have. Yeah. And then there's Alan at Tech. He's a blogger and he works for Tektronix. And he mentioned that he's seen 2N2222.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Right? The famous transistor. Yep. Yep. Now, that's got to be personalized, right? That wouldn't be just an accident. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: It depends on the state in the U.S. too because at least I know for mine, it's three letters and then four numbers. And to work out with the LMC555, that would be – you'd have to have it – they correspond the letters to the years, so it gets weird. You'd have to have a – it would be very rare to get something like that, right? So.

Dave Jones: Yep. Okay.

Chris Gammell: So, those are fun, though, yeah. Very cool. So, like BC547 or something like that, if people have seen that one. I always see the – it always catches my eye when I see, like, the ham operator plates. Those are actual vanity. Those are very specific.

Dave Jones: You've seen those. Right. Okay. Oh, I've seen those. I have people at my work. They've actually got their ham code.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, they have their call sign. Oh, right. Okay. Yeah.

Speaker ?: So.

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. That's very cool. That's a sign. I don't know in the U.S. Have you got the same culture here that these plates can be quite expensive, these vanity plates, as you call them? We just call them personalized plates here. Yeah. And they can be quite expensive now. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: It's like $40 a year here, I think.

Dave Jones: So, a lot of people try – sorry, how much?

Chris Gammell: It's like $40 a year, I think, at least in Ohio.

Dave Jones: Oh, right. No, it's much more – I think it's at least a couple hundred bucks a year here. Oh, jeez. That is not worth it. Yeah. Wow. I think it was cheaper, like, five, ten years ago. Now, it's – yeah. Yeah. There's some hideous yearly fee for it. Anyway, there's a culture of people trying to make up sort of a personalized number plate using the standard letters. So, you could actually get the 2N2222 in a standard number plate, which only costs you, you know, $30 to go out and get that. And that's just a one-off fee, right? You could actually make that up with ZNZ2222. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, you know, but it kind of looks like – and you sort of see these things and you go, oh, wanky, you couldn't afford the fully personalized plate. So, you've got – but there's almost an art to it, you know, trying to make up a personalized – like making up a word with the three letters and the three numbers, the standard number plate. Yeah. Is it like that there? Do you see stuff like that?

Chris Gammell: I mean, I've never seen – Stuff like that, or is it? I've never seen people trying that kind of stuff. But, yeah, I'm sure it happens some places, so.

Dave Jones: Oh, well, because if it's only $40 a year for a personalized, you just wouldn't bother. You know, you'd just get the fully personalized one or something. But, yeah, anyway, what cool electronics number plates have you seen? Let us know in the comments. And speaking of the – Because that's fun. I love it.

Chris Gammell: Oh, I do too. That's great. Speaking of the 555, there's – so, Eric Holland from the Rant – embeddederic.blogspot.com. He wrote in with his –

Dave Jones: Hey, Eric.

Chris Gammell: His entry for the Touchstone contest, which just ended. And so, that was like the low-power contest. I'm sorry.

Dave Jones: Somebody actually entered that contest. Apparently, they did. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, they did. And this is pretty cool, though.

Dave Jones: I haven't checked it out from the start. How many – because it's very specific. Yeah. It's incredibly low power. Yeah. I don't know. Is it still 5, 5 microwatts?

Chris Gammell: It was something. It was 30, I thought, but I'm not sure.

Dave Jones: Anyway, Eric's one is very cool. Yeah. Tell us about it.

Chris Gammell: He did a knockoff 555 timer. Just as a reminder, we've now said Arduino and 555 timer in the same show. So, you know. What a fail. I know. Yep. So, he did a switching 555 timer. It could go at 18 hertz, and that did 4.4 microamps at 1 volt. So, at 18 hertz, he could do –

Dave Jones: Which met the requirements. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: 4.4 microwatts.

Dave Jones: Which is pretty cool. I mean – And I guarantee you, this is what he – yeah, it is very cool. I guarantee you, this is what he did. He built it up, and then he turned the frequency down until he got under the 5 volt threshold. A threshold in the red. Right. That's my 5, 5 microwatts threshold. Right. That's my entry. Brilliant. Great. Yeah, that's great. I don't think anyone will beat that. I think that's a –

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's pretty great.

Dave Jones: Because it's a tough contest. That is a –

Chris Gammell: That is – yeah, that's very tough.

Dave Jones: That is a tough contest. To do something useful in 5 microwatts with an op amp. Yeah. Wow. You know.

Chris Gammell: And he said he could get it up to 330 kilohertz, but obviously that took a lot more power. So there's always that frequency versus power tradeoff. So, yeah. Bloody thing. Gets you every time, huh? So that's great. He wrote it. I don't know when that is actually ending, that contest, but I think it's coming up. So I'm sure we'll see a couple more entries pop out of that. So that's pretty fun.

Dave Jones: Yeah. But, yeah, I'll actually call it now. I think Eric should win it.

Chris Gammell: All right. Well –

Dave Jones: I haven't seen the other entries, but –

Chris Gammell: There's Dave's official vote with a totally blind field in front of him.

Dave Jones: Totally blind gut field. He doesn't do it any other way. Eric should win it. I don't – Right. No, I don't.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Thinking about stuff. Blah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Who needs it? I got that. Yeah.

Dave Jones: It's all gut field. Yeah. You can tell in the first two seconds whether or not something's shit or good or winner, loser.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So speaking of other circuits, too, our buddy, Jeff Kaiser, the mighty Ohm. Did you see his new thing? Hey, Jeff. Did you – No.

Dave Jones: What's his new thing?

Chris Gammell: He just released an open source hardware kit for a Geiger counter. And it's actually based on other previous Geiger counter kits that are out there. But it's kind of a – he touched it up a little bit. Cool. And he's released it. But he actually – he did a little ninja edit on our spreadsheet. We forgot to lock him out of it. He's actually at –

Dave Jones: Oh, right. Yes. He still has access to our magic spreadsheet here.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Came in via stealth. I love it.

Chris Gammell: He did. He did. He came in via stealth. Ninja Jeff. He wanted us to give him a little shout out. Him and Mitch are giving soldering lessons out at the Chaos Communications Camp, which is –

Dave Jones: That's right. They're in Germany. That's – I saw his tweets. He mentioned – yeah, he just landed in Germany.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Is it Germany?

Chris Gammell: Yes. I believe outside of Berlin, I think.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: So. Very cool. Seems like a really cool event, though. I mean, like, they go out to the woods. It's kind of like a ham field day or something like that where they all kind of go camp out and nerd out in the woods, basically. So, it seems like a lot of fun. I mean, I'm not a big camper. I'm an indoor kid, so it must be interesting seeing all those other innings. Those other indoor kids, you know.

Chris Gammell: Get out in the real world. Yeah. Yeah, the sun is so bright.

Chris Gammell: What was the slip, slop, slap or whatever that was, Dave, that you said? Slip, slop, slap. There you go. Yeah.

Dave Jones: If you ever make it to Sydney, I'm dragging you canyoning, dude.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. Yeah, definitely. We'll have to do that.

Dave Jones: We'll have you hanging from a rope over a 200-foot waterfall before you know it.

Speaker ?: Oh, my God.

Chris Gammell: No, that's not my thing. I don't do that. Another shout-out I had, actually. So, this is actually one of my buddies. Make for some great video. I'm sorry. Oh, yeah.

Dave Jones: Just me screaming. Just bawling his eyes out.

Chris Gammell: Oh, my God.

Speaker ?: Oh, my God.

Chris Gammell: Oh, my God.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Oh, boy. That'd be great. So, another- Sorry, I peaked there on my VU meter.

Chris Gammell: Oh, you're okay. You're okay. Another shout-out I had was actually one of my buddies, Dave, a different Dave. He ran a summer program for, like, high school students over the summer. And it was all engineering-based. And so, they actually are now finished up. And they had a bunch of really interesting- You know, he had all the kids kind of write their impressions of the program. So, you could actually go and read some of what they- You know, the kids experienced. And they're actually- You know, they were making stuff all summer. So, it was, like, a six-week program and pretty great stuff.

Dave Jones: Very cool.

Chris Gammell: Uh-oh.

Dave Jones: I love people who have the time to give for stuff like that. You know, it's absolutely brilliant.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So, it's called Blue Stamp Engineering. They're probably going to be teaching again next summer. So, that's cool stuff. Cool stuff. And my spreadsheet just crashed. So, I'm out of things to say.

Dave Jones: Oh, well done. Okay. I have to pick up the pieces, do I?

Chris Gammell: There we go. Yep. Oh, yeah. Here we go.

Dave Jones: Well, my internet connection just died before we started the recording. So, maybe it'll hold up for another two days. So, I think I'm right here.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So, what do you think, Dave? Should we get to this new segment?

Dave Jones: New segment. Do it.

Chris Gammell: Okay. Here we go.

Dave Jones: Hit it.

Dave Jones: It's a shonky tonk product. Give me, give me, give me the shonky tonk blues.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. So, I lied a little bit. That's what we're talking about. I do have some music.

Dave Jones: Right. And that was Chris singing there. That was me.

Speaker ?: So, there you go.

Dave Jones: Yep. Bit of karaoke work.

Chris Gammell: Yep. Yep. Watch out, world.

Dave Jones: Well done. Yes. It's the shonky product of the week. Yep. Ta-da.

Chris Gammell: I just wanted to say. Well, we've actually got two this week. Yeah, we do. And I wanted to say, I like the word shonky. That's your word, I believe, right? Shonky? Is that a-

Dave Jones: Yes, shonky. It's an Australian word. I didn't know you guys didn't have that over there.

Chris Gammell: No, no. I never heard it. I was giggling the first time I read it. So, I like it. Hang on.

Dave Jones: I can- Well, what's the official-

Chris Gammell: The definition?

Dave Jones: What's the official description of the word shonky? Let me get my Macquarie dictionary here. This makes for great radio. What? Fantastic. There's a dictionary. Real paper. This is a dead tree dictionary.

Chris Gammell: Oh, no way. So, what- Wait.

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: There's a dictionary for Australians? Is that what I'm hearing?

Dave Jones: Yes, it is the Macquarie Dictionary. Really? It's the official legal Australian dictionary. Yes. Wow. Yes, it's done by the Macquarie University here in Sydney. Oh, no. And it's the official- Oh, it's- I got one even worse. Because you've got to have- I got one worse. Yeah, no, you've got to have a legal dictionary for your country, right? No, I know there's a site online called- Judges.

Chris Gammell: It's koala.net.com.

Dave Jones: Oh, what?

Chris Gammell: Koala.net.com.au. It's a- And what's that? It's an Australian dictionary. It's online, though.

Dave Jones: Oh, really? Oh, yeah. This is going to be good.

Chris Gammell: But it's got slang words, right? Oh, yeah. A Captain Cook. Okay. Let's have a Captain Cook. Yep. Oh, this is going to be fun.

Dave Jones: It's got all the rhyming slang.

Chris Gammell: I'm going to try and get some of my own in here for now. Oh, my God. All right.

Dave Jones: And see if I can know- Fair Suck of the Sav? What? Oh, Fair Suck of the Sav. Yeah. Even our Prime Minister- Actually, our former Prime Minister actually modified that one himself. Instead of saying Fair Suck of the Sav, he said Fair Suck of the Sauce Bottle. And everyone went, huh? Okay. That's a new one. Okay. Everyone starts using Fair Suck of the Sauce Bottle now. So- You guys are weird.

Chris Gammell: Fair Suck of the Sav. How about as cross as a frog in a sock? Oh, yeah. We're strange as Australians. As cross as a frog in a sock? Is that another one?

Dave Jones: Oh, that's not very common. No? Okay. I think I've heard it once. Oh, my God. Yeah, it's not. What the hell, man? Yeah, we're very big on rhyming slang here.

Chris Gammell: You guys are weird.

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. We're upside down to the rest of the world, didn't you know? I did know that. Oh, my God. All the blood's rushing to our head. We're on the other side of the globe, dude. How about kangaroos loose in the top paddock? Oh, yeah. It's got a few. It means you're crazy. Yeah, it's got a few kangaroos loose in the top paddock.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, a couple screws rolling around or up there or whatever.

Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly.

Chris Gammell: Oh, my God. I'm bookmarking this one.

Dave Jones: You found a new gold mine, haven't you?

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That's great.

Dave Jones: Let's see. Shonky is. I'm assuming it's in that. I've got a very old Macquarie Dictionary. Let's see.

Chris Gammell: I've got it on here, too. Yeah. Shonky. Dubious or underhanded? Is that what you got?

Dave Jones: Right. It's not in my Macquarie Dictionary. I don't believe it. Ah, fail. I've got to update my Macquarie Dictionary, I think.

Dave Jones: Oh, my God. Anyway, yeah. Shonky. It means dodgy. You know?

Chris Gammell: Is that a... Well, that's another Australian word, isn't it? Dodgy? British people say that a lot, too.

Dave Jones: British, right. Yeah. A whole bunch of our stuff comes from British.

Chris Gammell: Oh, my God.

Dave Jones: If I type up WordWeb here, okay? I've got to spend ten minutes explaining the bloody segment.

Chris Gammell: Well, that's fine. Shonky. Yes, shonky. Very poor in quality. Yeah, dubious or underhanded.

Dave Jones: Unreliable or dishonest. Yeah. There you go. It's a piece of crap. That's what you're trying to say. It can mean dishonest. It can mean a piece of crap. But it can also mean that you're being dishonest, as in it's not just a piece of crap. It's actually it doesn't do what it claims. Right. That's basically what it means. Right. And you're shaming people. It's a sham. Yep. So it can mean either thing. So any product that makes it on here is either going to be just so crap it just deserves to be on here, or that it's, you know, it's a, or, or, or it's a sham, you know, it's, it doesn't do what it claims. So if you've got any good suggestions, but anyway, which one should we do this week? I think the top one. I noticed that one of them, okay. I noticed that the next one has actually been taken down off YouTube. I linked to a YouTube video and it's, and it's been taken down. So somebody has, uh, somebody's actually, actually removed it from the.

Chris Gammell: Maybe Jeff was the one that put it up there and then he looked on our list and he saw it, you know, he saw that we had listed it as a shonky product of the week. And he said, Oh, I better take down my video.

Dave Jones: No, it was a corporate. It was a, it was a corporate, uh, video. It was a, maybe the copyright owner actually, cause I think somebody put it up there. It was like an ad. It was a, anyway, should we do it? Maybe we'll leave it to next week. Maybe we can find it somewhere else. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Anyway, let's hear about this other one. This one, this one's good. I like this one. This is good.

Dave Jones: This one is the, uh, there, it's a fuel saver for a car, right? These scams have been going on forever. You know, anyway, what this one is, is it's a little cigarette lighter. You know, it just, it, it looks similar to one of those, uh, chargers, you know, one of those mobile phone chargers that you plug into your cigarette lighter and that's what you do. You plug this into your cigarette lighter and it's supposed to save you fuel. Right? Right. Wonderful.

Chris Gammell: And you should mention too that this, this came up on the forum first, right?

Dave Jones: Yeah. It was on the forum. Yeah. And we'll actually link to the forum because on the forum, there's an awesome link of a forum user. I forget his name. Sorry. Opossum. Oh, possum. Yep. Yes. Oh, possum. Um, actually bought one of these things and did a tear down of it and actually reversed engineered the schematic and everything. It's fantastic. Yep. And he debunked the whole thing saying, you know, this thing's a crock and it can't work. And, um, then he got threatened, um, with a lawsuit by the company that sells it. Cause it's a big company. They sponsor NASCARs and you know, they're making a lot of money out of this fuel saver device. Right. And, um, yeah. And, uh, they threatened him. They got, you know, he, he got letters from the lawyers, basically, um, almost extorting him. Really. They were telling him pay up five. We want five grand in damages and we want you to remove it from your website or, or else, you know, and he just sat back and laughed and didn't do anything. And there's been no, or else.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: So.

Chris Gammell: And so this is, this is called, did you say what it was actually called? What the name of the, the, the piece of crap product is?

Dave Jones: Oh, I, I, I don't know. It's just, they go under many names. This is just one of them. That's true. I can't, I can't remember the actual name of it. There's many, like this one actually has some circuitry in it. It's got like a triple five. I know it's got like a, um, uh, a 34063, uh, voltage regulator. It's got a capacitor. And that's the key thing, um, is the capacitor, right? A lot of them will do, you open them up and they're just a capacitor in there across the, across the battery. And it's like, yeah, a little percent capacitor that has an ESR of what, you know, 0.1 ohms or something across an engine that has, you know, huge thick cabling of, you know, milli ohms of, uh, ESR. It's going to make a difference. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yep.

Dave Jones: Right. Sure. It's just a crock. It really is.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And there's a bunch of, there's a bunch of consumer reports that have been done on this too. And they're just, they just, they just kind of stare at it. They're like, really? Like, they, they really say that this does anything. I mean, they, they're, so the, the basic claim is that they say, oh, well, you know, your electrical system is dragging your car down and, and, uh, they show, yeah, they show this noise on a scope. It is like, and it's a 12 volt, you know, a battery. It's not like you're doing anything with that. You know, it's like.

Dave Jones: Anyway. Yeah. They, they claim it interferes with the, uh, with the control, you know, the electronic. Hey, we're, we're talking about cars again here, Chris. Uh-oh. We could be in deep shit because we know nothing about cars.

Chris Gammell: The, uh, camshafts. So anyway. Yeah.

Dave Jones: They, you know, a lot of them claim that, oh, it, you know, smooths out the noise and then it makes your engine computer run better. That drives the, you know, that drives the, uh, spark plugs and, you know, all that sort of engine management kind of stuff, you know? Yeah. And anyway, they make some, make it more efficient. And, uh, and some of these companies have these official independent reports from various big sounding companies that say, oh yes, it works. And they've got some impressive graphs and, and data logs and all sorts of things. And yeah. Shonky products of the week. Car fuel savers. If, if you've got some beautiful links, but definitely go check out O'Possum's Teardown. Yeah. Of this thing. It's brilliant. Oh, I love it. Yep. And then he gets sued. He gets threatened with a, and, and he actually posted the letter from the owner of the company who finally, the owner got so upset that his lawyers weren't doing it. Lawyers couldn't shut him up that, that he, he wrote an email himself and it's just hilarious. And he posts, so he posted it on the website.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: It's great. Check it out.

Chris Gammell: It's really, yeah.

Dave Jones: That's well done O'Possum. Oh boy. Anyway. Shonky product of the week. If you've got a dodgy product like that, that can't possibly work, you know, if it's one of those $10,000 speaker cables, Hey, you know, they're a dime a dozen, but yeah, if it's, if it's something special, we'll mention it here on the Amp Hour. Oh, we're not afraid to get a suit, are we, Chris?

Chris Gammell: I am, but not by these guys. Right.

Dave Jones: Oh boy.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. It's hilarious. Yep. So how about, how about a little bit of nerd?

Dave Jones: And we'll try and find the video for the other one next week. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's been taken down. We'll try and, so we'll try and have something for you for next week as well. Yep. Shonky products. I love it.

Chris Gammell: How about a little nerd history? This week in nerd history. Yeah. This week in nerd history. So.

Dave Jones: No, it's actually this day, isn't it? Well, yeah. Because it's not this week. I've been looking around. You sort of do it to the day.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So this day.

Dave Jones: Even though it's a different day here than it is in the US.

Chris Gammell: Right. Well, sometimes I, that's, that works out better for me if there's actually nothing going on today here. So today I win. It's August 8th, 2000. Well, it is 2011 now. It's back in 96 though. So basically this, usually it's when there's births or deaths or.

Dave Jones: 96?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: That's not history.

Chris Gammell: It's history enough. But basically there's births.

Dave Jones: 90, I'm sorry. 96 is not history. Jeez.

Chris Gammell: You're not even listening, Dave. It's, it's, it's about, it's about, it's about calling people, you know, it's, it's how we're calling this out. Right? So there's, if someone was born on that day or if they died on that day or if something was discovered on that day.

Dave Jones: Oh, they died in 96. Okay. Right. Granted.

Chris Gammell: Exactly. So the guy, the stuff this guy did was in history. So the guy is, oh crud, Sir Neville Mott. He's, he's British dude. But basically he helped build transistors as we know it today. So there's, he won the 77 prize in physics. So he's a physicist too. So, you know, like we, we could look for only engineers, but you go back, you know, 20, 30 years and you're not going to see any engineers.

Dave Jones: They all started out being physicists and yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: And who, who had more of a non-theoretical bent to them.

Chris Gammell: Right. Exactly. Exactly.

Dave Jones: So they became engineers by default.

Chris Gammell: Right. And this guy actually was a theoretic, a theoreticist though. And so he worked in kind of like band gap theory and everything. And, but he started discovering that certain metals and metal oxides should have conductive properties when they're actually insulators. And so there, there's something called a Mott transition and it's basically when a metal becomes an insulator because of electron density.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So obviously this guy knew.

Dave Jones: So he was more of a, he was more of an experimental physicist than he was a theoretical physicist. Uh, I think you have to actually do the experiments. You get a lot of these theoretical physicists who, you know. Yeah. But I think you have to actually do the experiments yourself. Or did he do all this based in theory and he just worked it all out and then somebody else proved it.

Chris Gammell: Yes. He, he did it in theory. Ah. So, yeah. Got it. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Smart ass.

Chris Gammell: Right. But basically, I mean, this, without this guy, uh, you know, semiconductors wouldn't, wouldn't quite work so well. So interesting stuff about Mott transitions, um, you know, just how they work and why they're important. And, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's interesting because we don't really see it on a, you know, if you, if you try and buy us a 2N222, right? Or 2222, whatever Dave says, double two, double two, is that how you say it? Double two, double two. Yeah. You're not going to experience this unless you're, you know, right at the edge of, you know, the operating area or something like that.

Dave Jones: Yeah, of course.

Chris Gammell: Right. So it's not stuff that, that, you know, people using transistors on a daily basis would actually experience. But at the same time, it's, this has allowed the industry to move forward. So I thought it was pretty interesting. And, uh, yeah.

Dave Jones: It's very cool.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And there's actually, so. And I've certainly heard of him.

Dave Jones: I've, I've heard of the Mott.

Chris Gammell: The Mott transition.

Dave Jones: So.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. And there's, there's a bunch of videos I found through the, through his Wikipedia page too, uh, with a bunch of Nobel prize winners. So his, his was in 77 for physics, but, um, there's a bunch of other really cool videos there too. So we'll, we'll link that in. And, and that's actually how I knew he was a theoretical physicist instead of a experimental because he was straight up telling the camera, uh, but yeah, great videos. Yeah. So.

Dave Jones: Excellent. I've, I've, I've actually read a book on there. There is actually a book out there. I forget the title. I read it. I don't know. A decade and a half ago or something. 96. It's a book of every 96. It actually would have been about 93 actually. Okay. Uh, uh, every, it's a book detailing every physicist who's won the Nobel physics prize. Wow. It's quite, it goes through in chronological order. Every physicist who's won the thing and why. And yeah, I'm such a nerd that I read such a book.

Chris Gammell: Wow. Joe figure. Well, that's pretty cool, man. What was the, uh, did you, did you.

Dave Jones: I don't know. It just happened to be in the library. You know, I was browsing through this as like, you know, a library folks, you know, those places where they have. Kendal. Dead trees.

Chris Gammell: Was it a Kendal?

Dave Jones: I was, uh, browsing the bookshelves and there it was. Oh, that sounds interesting. Every, you know, a chronological history of every Nobel physicist.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Awesome. Did you have a favorite, do you have a favorite, uh, discovery?

Dave Jones: Uh, I, I don't know. I can't remember, dude. It's only 93.

Chris Gammell: That was only a couple of years ago, right, Dave?

Dave Jones: A couple of years ago. Yeah. Right. Jesus pushing on, it's pushing on 20 years ago now.

Chris Gammell: That's right. Yeah, it is.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Scary, isn't it?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, it kind of is. Yeah. Time keeps on cranking.

Dave Jones: And it's almost up for the show. It is.

Chris Gammell: Unfortunately. Is there any, anything else?

Dave Jones: What else we got? We got three minutes left.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, I was going to say, are there any, any, any things you want to talk about before we go?

Dave Jones: Uh, you had a thing from, um, Scott, Scott Adams, who we both love.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yes. Yeah, that's down at the bottom there. Uh, yeah. So, so there's.

Dave Jones: Yeah, no, Scott Adams, Dilbert. He's the creator and drawer of Dilbert.

Chris Gammell: And, and he's got.

Dave Jones: Bowing.

Chris Gammell: And he's got a great blog too. I mean, honestly, like, it's.

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah, he does. He comes out with some wicked stuff. Yeah. He's got all these creative ideas that he just puts on his blog and they're brilliant. If, if you don't read his blog, I highly recommend it. I've stopped reading it for a while actually, cause I lost it all when I, I used to read it at work and it was tied into my Google mail at work and that.

Chris Gammell: Oh, gotcha.

Dave Jones: I've got to get back on it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Uh.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: So, yeah. So he, he actually had written an entry a while back and I actually had it on here on our list and then it kind of disappeared somehow. But basically he wrote a follow-up piece to his own blog on Wall Street Journal and basically he's saying that without boredom, he said, you know, he was kind of, I think he was kind of doing a nostalgic, oh, well, back in my day kind of thing. I grew up without any.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: You know, visual stimulus that everybody has all the time, including him these days. Right. So he's always on his phone. Yeah. Or on a Kindle or on anything like that. And basically that creative processes don't really happen unless you're bored. I don't know. Is that, is that kind of what drove you to the electronics shed when you were, when you were a boy? Yeah.

Dave Jones: I think it does. Yeah, it does. Because I didn't have a childhood. I didn't have any friends. So what else am I going to do? I'm going to, well, I'm going to tinker with electronics out in my workshop, you know? Yeah. That's what I did. So, yeah, I don't think he's wrong, really.

Chris Gammell: I don't either. You know, I think that there was a rebuttal piece from Gizmodo, obviously. I don't think they really took kindly to saying the Gizmos are bad, right? But, uh.

Dave Jones: Oh, no. Yeah. Yeah. But those people who run Gizmo, they haven't done anything. Well, and that's, yeah. Creative, have they? I don't know about that. I don't like to slag them off. But, jeez, they're just a bunch of, they're a bunch of, um, not that there's anything wrong with this. They're a bunch of gadget nerds, right? They're a, that's what Gizmodo is, isn't it? They're Gizmos, gadgets, right? They're a bunch of gadget nerds.

Chris Gammell: I don't really know what they're like. I mean, I don't know what they're like, but their example was, oh, well, you know, innovative things are still happening. What about, like, the iPhone? And it's like, well, yeah, but the iPhone was designed by a small group of people, and you have no, and they have no way of knowing, you know, like, if the small group of people that worked on the iPhone are old engineers, they're probably going home at night and, you know, reading books and, you know, like, not using iPhones necessarily. You know, like these analog engineers and digital engineers. Yeah, yeah. You know, like, so I don't know. I don't know if that was the best example. I mean, I tend to agree with Scott Adams.

Dave Jones: Yeah, no, that was the cliche example. Yeah, I don't know.

Chris Gammell: I mean, for as much as you and I talk about Twitter.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I guess you can make arguments both ways. Of course you can.

Chris Gammell: Of course you can. But, I mean, as much as you and I talk about Twitter, I find I get a lot less done when I'm actually on Twitter than when I'm just, you know, doing stuff. Oh, yes.

Dave Jones: You know, it's... Even my wife has realized that. Get off that Twitter. What do you have that thing, all that shit popping up for? You know, she's always saying that. Isn't that distracting? All that pop-up. You know, every... You know, like, I'm showing her something here, right? You know, I'm showing her something on a browser and all of a sudden a tweet will pop up, you know, because I've got TweetDeck and it pops up. And what? What do you want that rubbish for constantly interrupting you? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: No.

Dave Jones: Oh, anyway.

Chris Gammell: Listen to your wife, man.

Dave Jones: I think she's right. I think so, too.

Chris Gammell: One of the many times I'm sure you say that in a day.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, I've had to turn it off, right? If I'm doing my consulting and I need to concentrate, I need to get something out in a hurry, I will turn off Twitter, you know? Yeah. I'll turn off TweetDeck. I go, I don't need those pop-up interruptions. And I don't need that temptation to go check it, you know?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: So, yeah, I just switch it off.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So, it's just kind of like a fine balancing point because there are benefits of it, right? So, you know, we're both on Twitter. We like talking to other engineers and it's not like we're talking about necessarily like politics or, you know, celebrity gossip or all that other crap.

Dave Jones: I find it gives you ideas, too. Like if you're, you know, if you're like, you know, you might be bored, so you might go check Twitter and then somebody tweets a link to something and then, you know, that gives you a great idea. You go, oh, isn't that cool? Right. Or maybe I can design a spin-off, something like that. That's a great idea. That gives me other ideas.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, like you wouldn't have found out about the license plates, right? I mean, that's how that whole thing started. Yeah. So, there's a balance point, obviously, in all things, right?

Dave Jones: It works both ways. So, I don't know. I don't think they're necessarily either one of them is right or wrong.

Chris Gammell: I would tend to agree more with Scott Adams. But anyway, check out Scott Adams' point. He's going to say, I'd agree more with Scott Adams. And, you know, he's got good ideas.

Dave Jones: I think I would, too. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: All right. Well, people can always find us on Twitter, of course. Those messages will sit there and wait for us. And so, Dave is EEVblog.

Dave Jones: And your message will pop up and annoy us if you put at EEVblog or at Chris Gammell. That's right. Chris underscore Gamble. That's right. Isn't it?

Chris Gammell: Yep. Yep. Yep. And the Ant Power has one now, too.

Dave Jones: You too can annoy us and suck away our life. That's right. Yeah. Just by sending us a tweet. Just strike the hell out of us. Because we read every tweet that comes our way. Because it pops up in a different column. It's all organized. So, you know, our sucking away of our life is all totally organized. It's great.

Chris Gammell: That is nice. It's convenient. It's convenient.

Speaker ?: Yeah.

Dave Jones: It's convenient. And sucking your life is all around in one place. Oh, it's in two now. Isn't Facebook the other thing that sucks away your life? That's not me. I don't use Facebook. Yeah. I'm not a. No.

Chris Gammell: All right. Well, feel free to shout at us on there or on the website.

Dave Jones: And we've just sucked away an hour of your life. That's right. That's our comeback.

Chris Gammell: Yep. All right, guys. Well, we will talk to you next week. We will. See you then. Bye. Bye.

Chris Gammell: Bye.

Speaker ?: Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye. Bye.

Dave Jones: Oh, no, we won't see you then because there's no video, right? And it's a one-way broadcast medium. I'm completely failed on that one. Sorry. Bye. Bye.