#34 – AD620, DesignSpark, Instrumentation Amplifier - The Rant Rhetorical

Chris Gammell: This is the Amp Hour Podcast, recorded March 14th, 2011. Episode 34, The Rant Rhetorical.

Dave Jones: Welcome to the Amp Hour. I'm Dave Jones from the EEV Blog.

Chris Gammell: And I'm Chris Gammell from Chris Gammell's Analog Life. Hey Chris, how's your bench going? The bench is done. Bench is... I'm on YouTube, man. I'm famous.

Dave Jones: Man, you'll have to get one of those I'm famous I'm on YouTube t-shirts or something.

Chris Gammell: I've never seen those.

Dave Jones: Oh, right. Okay. I haven't got one. I think it's a bit... I don't know. I thought about... That's funny though. I thought about getting one when I hit like a million, you know. Nice, nice. When I hit a million views, but, you know, like with the big... Like the Wilder, you know, finger. You know, the finger. Oh, yeah. I'm famous. I've got a million views.

Chris Gammell: What'd he do? He's famous for a little different thing.

Dave Jones: Right, okay.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, that poster seems to be taken off though. Well, not taken off. I think a lot of people liked it though. I posted on...

Dave Jones: Oh, they definitely did.

Chris Gammell: I posted on Reddit. I think like 3,000 people came by to see it and hopefully it's printed out next to a couple benches, so...

Dave Jones: Oh, okay. I didn't know it made Reddit and... Yeah, well, my mate Doug Ford, who's the analog guy, he just thought it was freaking brilliant. Yeah. And he's already printed it out, laminated it. It's up there in the shed and...

Chris Gammell: Yeah. There was one guy on Reddit who said he wanted to print it out on a plotter and I asked him to take a picture in front of it because just seeing it that big would be amazing. I haven't heard back from him yet, but hopefully he'll do it. Yeah, it was awesome.

Dave Jones: Right, like a big wall size one. That'd be awesome. One of those big A0 printers. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that'd be... Yeah. That'd be fantastic.

Chris Gammell: That'd be a big finger.

Dave Jones: Love it. So, I finally got to see you on video because I've never seen you on video before.

Chris Gammell: I know. That's actually what I look like.

Dave Jones: We've only talked. Yeah. I know. All I've been able to see is that fuzzy little image of you on your about page on the site. That's in a couple of Facebook photos and that's about it. Really.

Chris Gammell: Dave Jones is my stalker.

Dave Jones: Right. What's happening with those sideburns, dude? They're straight out of the 70s.

Chris Gammell: Are they that low? I don't know. I didn't get...

Dave Jones: Yeah, well, I don't know. They seemed to be... It was a bit dark. It was kind of hard to see, but...

Chris Gammell: It found my sideburns. Sorry, I'll have to watch it again. No, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Right. That's what I look like, though.

Dave Jones: Yep. There you go.

Chris Gammell: That's me.

Dave Jones: The voice was funny, actually, because it totally didn't sound like you. Only in certain... I think maybe when you were in front of the camera, it didn't sound like you at all, but when you were behind it or something, or you were doing, maybe doing a voiceover with a different mic or something.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's what it is. I did a different... Right, okay. I actually recorded the whole thing on my phone.

Dave Jones: Phone. That's what I thought, yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So, not the best situation, but it's still a pretty decent phone. So, it had like 720p video or whatever. Yeah. But maybe eventually I'll get a different camera, but I don't know. I don't know if I'll keep doing videos, so that might be the one and only.

Dave Jones: All right. Well...

Chris Gammell: Don't want to tread on your territory, Dave.

Dave Jones: Content's content. Ah, it's all right. I don't mind. I thrive on competition.

Chris Gammell: Yes, that's what you always say, thrive on competition.

Dave Jones: Yes, absolutely. Well, I've got a couple of projects, two as well, home projects. Yes, the wife has signed off, she who must be obeyed.

Chris Gammell: Signed a triplicate.

Dave Jones: Has signed off that I'm allowed to get acoustic wall panel in for the recording studio here. Yeah. So, oh man, not only do I have my new shock mount mic stand and with the big, you know, folding arm thing, I'm already ahead of you there, Chris, but I'm going to get acoustic panel in because at the moment, get rid of this stupid couch in front of me, this big pillow.

Chris Gammell: Oh, the couch cushions? Yeah. We've seen pictures of that before. They're couch cushion in front of me. That's right. Yeah.

Dave Jones: I'm still using those and it makes a hell of a difference. Yeah. Yeah. And the wife came in here last night and I said, sit down and talk. And I didn't have the pillow here and she could hear the echo in the room, you know, you didn't even have to play it back. That's right. You could just hear your own voice. Try it out. And then I stuck the pillow in front of her and she went, wow, you know, that's fantastic. Yeah, that's good. That's good to have it tried out. Anyway, she's signed off on these panels, you know, the ones that just hang on the wall and they almost look like works of art, you know, like painting kind of, you know, in the, those strip panels, those long sort of, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Acoustic panels, right? They're acoustic tiles?

Dave Jones: Yeah. They're acoustic panels. They're like made of fabric, you know, and you can choose them in any type of color. So she'll get to pick the color and, you know, and apparently they work really well.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I used to have an old set of those. I borrowed them from my drum room back at the place I used to live in college, but they were all made out of fiberglass and I scraped one on my arm and I couldn't, oh my God, the skin was, it's just horrible. So don't get fiberglass if that's on your... No, I'm not. Okay.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I'm getting the low allergy, you know, the, I think it's a polyester type filling in or something. Gotcha. Yeah. Something like that. So I don't know whether or not to make them myself or just buy them because I can buy them for like $60 a panel ready made. And by the time I build the frame and, you know, try and figure out how to get the fabric on there tight and without it warping and then staple it all down. Ah, I don't know. I think it might be a bit too much work. So I might just buy the off the shelf one possibly. So.

Chris Gammell: Ah, well. I'll be interested to see it. That's good. Did I see you're building a wall too? I mean, am I inspiring design with my bench? I saw John, John, oh God, I said his name wrong last time. Last time I said Shuch, but it's actually Shook, I think.

Chris Gammell: Shook. Oh, sorry.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. My bad. Anyways, he said he's finally getting on his bench. He's been talking about it for months, so.

Dave Jones: Awesome. Everyone's building.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I'm getting new cupboards out in the garage. All right. So hopefully they'll come this week. So this weekend I'll be installing those. And with that, I thought, well, if I'm doing all that, why not build a wall and actually enclose my lab? Because at the moment it, you know, it gets a lot of dust and crap, you know, and it's just exposed like the car, like you drive the car and it's literally halfway in the lab almost, you know, it's, I don't know.

Chris Gammell: Have you ever been doing a video and your wife pulls in and opens the garage door and

Dave Jones: you're like, ah, close the door. That's happened. Yeah. It has happened.

Chris Gammell: Oh, man.

Dave Jones: And so I was thinking about building a wall, maybe putting some soundproof insulation in it. Oh, fancy. But I don't know whether or not to actually fully enclose it and have like a door. There's not much room for a door, so I don't know how I'm going to do it. Or, you know, and, or whether or not to sort of do like a half a wall, which kind of just separates. And then, uh, the, um, another wife suggestion, it was a, uh, curtain, have like a, a big draping curtain, which sort of pulls across on a rod that sort of turns off the other half. I don't know. It might feel like I'm entering some gypsy tent or something. I don't know. Some fortune teller's tent. Yeah, get your fortune told by Dave Jones. That's right.

Chris Gammell: The EEV blog, uh, prognosticator. Right. Tell it about who will be shamed on camera next. That's it. Yes.

Dave Jones: And I don't know whether or not I'll feel claustrophobic in there. Cause the lab is tight. Like it's two and a half meters by two and a half meters or something. It is tiny. Yeah. If you've, if you've seen my, uh, video tour of it, lab tour. And yeah, if I put a wall up there, it's like, oh God, I don't know. But anyway, that will improve the acoustics. I can put the wall up. I can put the acoustic tiles on the wall and I'm going to install new lighting in there. And, but yeah, I don't know whether or not I'll feel like I'm in, you know, someone's closet really rather than the lab.

Chris Gammell: So you, you heard it here first folks. Chris Gammell is inspiring others to build things. Chris Gammell is an economic driver. So, you know, I'm, I'm helping the economy by making others jealous of my bench.

Dave Jones: Even in other countries.

Chris Gammell: That's right. Yeah. International. I hope I don't get, get taxed on it.

Dave Jones: Right. So how big is your lab?

Chris Gammell: Well, it's my whole basement really. I kind of just claimed the whole thing.

Dave Jones: Basement. Well, how, how big is your basement? Uh, feet.

Chris Gammell: I could probably estimate meters.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Do it. No, that's a lie. Maybe seven meters across. No.

Chris Gammell: That's huge. Yeah. And then, uh. That's 21 feet.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. It looks about right. It's like 20 by 30 probably in the basement.

Chris Gammell: Right. That's, that's huge. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean, there's a washing machine in a, in a, uh, furnace and another work. I have another workbench too that came with the house. So.

Dave Jones: All right. Cool.

Chris Gammell: That's a mechanical one. But yeah.

Dave Jones: Yep. What I would give for a mechanical workbench that I could actually have a drill press on and a vice. Yeah. Novel. Wow. You know. No.

Chris Gammell: Move to America, dude. Land of the free.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I know.

Chris Gammell: Free land.

Dave Jones: Well, I've, well, I've got a ton of free land. It's that cheap, is it? Yeah. Well, it might is. Your economy's collapsed so much that it's. Well, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Move to Detroit. I think they just give it to you.

Dave Jones: Detroit. Yeah. It's free, right? If you can. Isn't it like that in England? Can't you get like a castle or something for next to nothing?

Chris Gammell: Oh, I have no idea. Maybe the listeners know.

Dave Jones: I believe you can. Anyway. Anyway, I think the idea is that they're, but you have to, they will let you buy it or they'll give it to you or something. I don't think they give it to you, but they're dirt cheap, these castles. But you have to maintain them and actually do them up. So it costs millions to actually repair them. So it's not as big a bargain as you think it is. Right.

Chris Gammell: And then there's taxes and all the other stuff.

Dave Jones: And then there's land tax and everything else probably.

Chris Gammell: So it'd be pretty badass to have a castle.

Dave Jones: I've always wanted, my dream is to have a moat and a drawbridge and a lookout tower that I can just, you know, bow and arrow and I can shoot the bastards as they come in. And, you know, that's...

Chris Gammell: Or even better, you could set up sentry, like crossbow sentries. Absolutely. How they have those Nerf guns. Or you could do Nerf, you know, for when friends come over.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, exactly.

Chris Gammell: Just make sure you flip the right switch.

Dave Jones: Oh, that'd be so awesome. Yeah. That would be really great. I've always wanted a castle. Anyway. Dream on.

Chris Gammell: Maybe someday, Dave.

Dave Jones: Yep. Well, they're all castles around here. You know, they're all six bedroom castles around here, around the way. I've got a tiny little four bedroom house, you know, single level. Oh. Ooh. Jeez, I'm slumming it here.

Chris Gammell: I guess so. Well, yeah. Yeah, you also won't be paying your mortgage off in 20, 30 years, right? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Exactly. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I wouldn't worry about that. Yep. I was listening to a thing about engineers being... What was it in? I think it was on Get Rich Slowly. Right. About how engineers are like a lot more frugal. Oh, it was... Oh, and it was Millionaire Next Door. I think I might have mentioned that on here, but engineers are listed as one of the professions that's like usually like next door millionaires you don't know about because they're frugal, they shop around, you know, they know trade-offs and stuff like that. And so looking at like a four bedroom house, you know, like if you can put in a lab and you can, you know, raise a family there and do whatever you want there, it's like who needs a six bedroom house at that point, so.

Dave Jones: And they don't overextend either, which is a common thing here. You know, everyone borrows a million dollars, whereas an engineer won't do that because they go, no, that's... That's a crap load of money. That's way too much. That's non-optimized. Right. You know, I don't like that. I'm going to, you know, borrow a half million instead and live somewhere more sensible, you know? Sensible.

Chris Gammell: That's a good word for engineers. I like that.

Dave Jones: Engineers are sensible. They are.

Chris Gammell: Unless they're Bob Weidler, in which case they're just awesome.

Dave Jones: Right. And then they just flip you the bird. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Stick it. I love it. I got Mexico for years at a time.

Dave Jones: Right. Ah, dear, dear.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: I would put up that poster, but I'm, you know, I'm probably more of a digital guy than analog. I'm a mixed signal guy. You know? Mixed signal guy. So...

Chris Gammell: That's a nice cop-out, Dave. Yeah. Yeah. I know. It's tough, because like when you do power, right? Power is, you know, it's technically analog, but everything's technically analog. Oh, of course. Yeah. You know? And actually, I heard a really interesting argument the other day. I think it was on Reddit, actually. Or sorry, I read the interesting argument that everything is actually digital. Because... Right. ...quantum levels.

Dave Jones: Ah, well, yeah, I know.

Chris Gammell: So, that's kind of a... That's an interesting argument, though, isn't it? I mean, like...

Dave Jones: It is.

Chris Gammell: It is. I mean, it's sort of true. I mean, like...

Dave Jones: Well, no, but... Well, no, quantum is an infinite number of levels, though, isn't it? And you can't actually determine it.

Chris Gammell: But that's the whole idea of the quantum level, is that... They're like discrete energy levels. It's non-deterministic. Right?

Dave Jones: Oh, discrete. And, well, yes, if you get down to the... What is it? Is it the Planck constant, which is the lowest energy level? What's the lowest energy level?

Speaker ?: Oh, physics.

Dave Jones: Oh, God. Physics, yeah. Oh, physics.

Chris Gammell: God.

Dave Jones: I should know this. I should know. Yeah, that sounds about right.

Chris Gammell: Max Planck's probably turned it over in his grave, but... Yeah, probably, yeah.

Dave Jones: And I'm sure I'll get abused on the comments for, yeah, not knowing what the lowest energy level is.

Chris Gammell: But that was the argument, though, is that because there are discrete energy levels, that it's more digital than analog, and blah, blah, blah, blah. Who cares? But anyways, that's just as douchey as saying that everything's analog, right? It's saying everything's digital. It's like, okay, come on. It's just how you look at it.

Dave Jones: You start talking Heisenberg, and what a bastard he is, you know, you can't measure the exact location and the direction at the same time. You just can't do it. So, ah, quantum's a bitch, isn't it?

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. Yeah. I don't touch it anymore. My only exposure to that anymore is watching the Big Bang Theory, to be honest.

Chris Gammell: Yep, that's it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. There was a period where I went through, like, reading about string theory and all that stuff, like Elegant Universe and other texts and stuff, and it's like, eh, don't do it anymore.

Dave Jones: Okay. Speaking of the Big Bang Theory, the wife was talking about this last night, and she was, she read an article somewhere, I don't know where it is, that people are talking about the Big Bang Theory is the new Friends. Now, I never used to watch Friends, really. I know, maybe you didn't either. No, I did.

Chris Gammell: I did back in the day. Right?

Dave Jones: No, you did. Okay. And it was, you know, what was Friends all about relationships and all that sort of stuff? Yeah. You know? Just quirky New Yorkers. It was the interrelationships, yeah, nuances between the different characters. And that's what the Big Bang Theory is. The science and the physics aspect and the engineering aspect is more of a, just a, you know, a sideshow, really. It's just a way to, it's just an avenue to get the jokes and to allow the interaction between the characters.

Chris Gammell: Well, yeah, nerdy caricatures are pretty good sources of material, too. I mean. Oh, yeah. Absolutely. The thing is, not a lot of nerds are actually that nerdy, you know what I mean? Yeah. Of course. Like, Sheldon is such a caricature that, like, if you ever meet someone like that, you know, take a picture. Right. Except they won't let you, because it's like Sheldon, right?

Dave Jones: I know some people that aren't far off, but. Oh, really? Yeah, I know. It's highly, you know, accentuated. Right.

Chris Gammell: Right.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Oh, boy.

Dave Jones: I guess we better get on to something, huh? So, 15 minutes in. Yeah. Right, and we haven't talked about, you know. Anything.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Jack shit, really.

Chris Gammell: Let's talk about some shout outs. How about that? He's a popular guy, Jack shit.

Speaker ?: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Right. How about some shout outs?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, shout outs do it.

Chris Gammell: Okay, so first off, we got two new podcasts, actually. Oh, awesome. So, first one is Vintage Volts. And that's actually, so a guy, he said he's going to be doing, he's just starting out, it was his first podcast, but he's going to be doing, like, kind of like drive time rants, almost. So, it's Jeff Salzman. Right. Okay. And he's kind of talking about, kind of like how electronics were back in the day, kind of thing. So, I think it's still kind of, he's still working on format and stuff, but, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Okay. Cool.

Chris Gammell: Cool. Nice. Welcome to the fray. Welcome to the fray. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah.

Dave Jones: And what format does he have that in? What format is the show done in? Like, as in, is it a pre-recorded, it's not a live thing? No, no, it's because it's drive time. No, it's a pre-recorded. And it's iTunes and...

Chris Gammell: I'm not sure if it's iTunes, but it's just on his site, vintagevolts.com.

Dave Jones: Okay, yep, I'm visiting there now and, yep, he's got an RSS feed and...

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yep. Cool.

Dave Jones: I like it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And the other one is the BeagleCast. And that's, the guy's at BeagleBoard, and that's a new one where they'll bring in, you know, BeagleBoard experts because there's so many projects built around that. Yep. And basically, you know, talking about the projects, talking about open hardware, open source hardware. And so, Jason Kreidner is the host, and then Gerald, I forget Gerald's last name. I believe it's going to be them two and maybe someone else, and they'll bring other guests on, basically. So, they're kind of... Also, they're still working on format, too. They're looking for suggestions. So, if you're on Twitter, shoot Jason a message with the pound BeagleCast hashtag or just give him a message. But what I'm hoping for is, is one of the guys that makes BeagleBoards is Clint Cooley. Have you ever heard any of his talks or talked to him or anything?

Dave Jones: No. Probably haven't.

Chris Gammell: He's got, like, one of the best Texas accents I've ever heard. So, he's a board guy. You know, he'll do, like... He does Assembly House, I think. But, oh, my God. I hope... I so hope they bring him on just because he has the best accent. I got to hang out with those guys at ESC Boston, and they're a ton of fun to hang out with. And, man, just hearing Clint's voice would be really awesome on radio, so...

Dave Jones: That'd be great.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. It'd be a good juxtaposition for your Aussie accent. Awesome. Yeah.

Dave Jones: And I've got one more, actually, which is not on the list. And I just realized Savage Circuits actually have a video version. Oh, really? I don't think it's weekly. Yeah, but I stumbled across it somehow. I was searching YouTube, and there it was. The Savage Circuits... I can't remember the name. Sorry. But, yeah, they've got some regular video segment. That's great. And who's the guy's name? Sorry, I forget. It's Chris Savage. Chris. Yeah. Sorry, Chris. And, yeah, he's like... It's like a talking head thing in front of the camera. He just stands in front, talks about news and events and stuff like that. They've got some fancy animation graphics, and they've got contests and all sorts of stuff. So, that's a little... Yeah, I don't think it's weekly. It's sort of whenever it comes out, kind of. Okay. Okay.

Chris Gammell: Some of the EV blog model. More of a...

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, yeah, I try and make it regular, but they're a bit, yeah, less regular. Right. So...

Chris Gammell: That's okay. Yeah.

Dave Jones: And actually, it's... Yeah, it's good.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I had one last shout-out. I forgot this one. So, it's to Jaime. And who... He's actually the one that did the poster that we've been talking about. So, I made a poster that was really crude and just, I make circuits, bitch. But...

Dave Jones: Oh, okay. I thought you were the one who modified it to add the extra.

Chris Gammell: I'm glad I did that because... Yeah. It was Jaime. So, he's JPWack on Twitter. So, we've talked about him.

Dave Jones: That one's much better. Oh, so much better. Yeah, the other ones. Right. Yeah, it's just great. Right.

Chris Gammell: And we actually got an email back from Bob Peace about that because... Oh, really? I sent it over to Paul Reiko, and then he's the one that posted it initially. And then he sent it to Bob and the guy that designed the 741 as well. He wrote back, too. So, awesome. Good stuff. Yeah. Awesome, awesome, awesome.

Dave Jones: Is there like a digital version?

Chris Gammell: A digital version of...

Dave Jones: For those of that poster?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, it's on our website.

Dave Jones: Maybe I can get a photo of me flipping the bird or something. Oh, you mean like with the overlays? No, but I mean as in for digital... Yeah, this one's for the analog fans, right?

Chris Gammell: Oh, I think you'd have to make your own.

Dave Jones: Is there one for the microcontroller fans or the... Oh. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I don't know who...

Dave Jones: Maybe I can stand there with a fag hanging out of my mouth flipping the bird instead of I don't smoke, so...

Chris Gammell: Right, yeah. You'd be coughing up a storm after that, right? Right. Yeah. Nothing yet, so... Anyway, that'd be cool. The market's open for that one.

Dave Jones: Excellent. All right. Maybe I can do something.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. All right, so you had a rant. Let's hear it.

Speaker ?: Did I?

Chris Gammell: I think so.

Dave Jones: Which one was this?

Chris Gammell: Maybe a discussion about Atmel?

Dave Jones: Oh, Atmel. The bastards. Yes, Atmel. Yeah. Yeah, listen up. Buy a clue here. What was the rant? I don't know.

Speaker ?: I forget.

Dave Jones: Registering.

Chris Gammell: Registering.

Dave Jones: Registering. Thank you. You're welcome. Registering on their damn website. I went to download their latest AVR Studio software, right? Which is cool, and it's free. Yeah. But no, you know, to download the damn thing, you've got to register on the site. And that's a pain in the ass in itself. But then when you register, it doesn't... I haven't looked into it in full details, but it looks like you have to do that, fill out the form for each different file on the website that you want to download. It's insane. It doesn't keep your details, logs you in, and then you're sweet from then on. Yeah. It appears it doesn't work like that. I meant to actually go in and check it properly. And it's been like this for ages, but I haven't really...

Chris Gammell: So you just threw your hands up in disgust, and you said, I'm not doing this. Oh, I just...

Dave Jones: But this time, because I wanted the software right now, and there's the link, and it says, you know, it's got a little register icon next to it, and it makes you fill out this stupid form. And then they go to all the effort to claim, oh, it's for the hobbyist and all this sort of stuff. You know, we're doing this great service for the hobbyist because all the software is free, right? And then on the form is all the typical bullshit about, you know, how many... You know, your volume, the company you work for, what market segments you're in, all that sort of stuff, which is non-hobbyist...

Chris Gammell: Right. And they're just getting nonsense data there anyways, right?

Dave Jones: And they're just getting nonsense data. So it's pointless.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That's too bad.

Dave Jones: Idiots.

Chris Gammell: Man. The thing is, though, you know how to fix that, Dave. Don't download it. That's why, you know.

Dave Jones: No, is to do a video rant and then send it to their CEO and, you know. Yeah, that's how you get...

Chris Gammell: That's another way to do it, yep.

Dave Jones: That's another way to do it. So, yeah, maybe I'll do something on that. I don't know. But it just pisses me off, really. I mean, especially when they're only going to get garbage data from it. Yeah. It's just pointless. It's... Oh.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, I don't know. Man. Part of me is sympathetic to you, but the other part just says, well, suck it up and do it because it's free software, you know.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah, but no. And that is the final message, right?

Chris Gammell: I mean, obviously they're wrong, but that is the final message, right? Because until they change you, you have to do that. Unless you're not going to download it. Well, of course. Right.

Dave Jones: I can still bitch about it. Oh, hell yeah. Yeah. Because, yeah, and it's like it's almost, you know, there's no common sense behind it. You know, it's... All these decisions are made by different segments of the department. Like, there'll be one department who'll go, oh, let's advertise that we're hobbyist friendly and we're, you know, doing it right for the hobbyist and all that sort of shit. And so keep right now, too. And then they've got another... Yeah, exactly. And they've got the other mob saying, oh, well, we have to get all this industry data when you register, you know, even if you're not a... You know, there's no option to tick hobbyist there and just not fill in the rest of it, you know. It's just... It's crazy. Right. Anyway, buy a clue. Buy a clue. Really.

Chris Gammell: Yep.

Dave Jones: That's my new favorite phrase at the moment. There's so many people just doing dumb shit, really.

Chris Gammell: I saw you put that on Twitter a couple of times.

Dave Jones: Did I? Yeah, probably. Yeah, sorry. It's my new catchphrase at the moment. That's okay. Send me your PayPal address so you can... Buy a clue. I can send you a dollar.

Chris Gammell: Yep. Buy a clue. Nice. You know, the inflation's kind of going up, so you might want to...

Dave Jones: Oh, I'll give them to you. I'm happy to send them $2. Seriously. Send me your PayPal address. Right. And $2 is coming your way.

Chris Gammell: I have a bit of a... Not a rant. It's not even a rant. It's just... It's a complaint, too. I've just wondered why... Right. Why aren't more chip vendors on Twitter? Maybe they're just not seeing it yet, but... I want to go and talk to someone at LT, or I want to go talk to someone at National Semi, right? And when it's just behind a press release account, where they're just kind of blasting out data sheets... Yeah, right. I don't get why they're doing that. I don't...

Dave Jones: Well, because a lot of people, that's all they want, right? When you sign up to a Twitter account, that's what you might be interested in. Actually, I've had experience with this recently, because I finally got my Facebook account working, the Facebook account for the blog.

Chris Gammell: It's not my personal account, right?

Dave Jones: And I started cross-posting all of my tweets onto my Facebook account, right? Thinking that people would want to, you know, like read all my tweets and use Facebook and see what I'm talking about at the moment and interact with me both ways through Facebook instead of through Twitter, right? Because some people don't use Twitter, but they like Facebook. Okay, I'll be on Facebook too. And then I started getting complaints. I don't want to read all this shit. You know, all I want is your blog posts. That's it. That's what I signed up to your Facebook account for.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And well, what do you do? I think they're different formats, so that's the other problem with Facebook. Facebook's definitely a different format.

Dave Jones: Well, no. You can... No, it's a sign-up thing where you get people's announcements, basically. No, I know, but if... You get a short announcement kind of thing.

Chris Gammell: I think about how I use Facebook, right? I want an announcement that says you have a post or, you know, here's an idea and have all the comments on it, right? If you're on Twitter and you're going back and forth with people and it keeps pulling over everything, I don't like that. I don't know.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Twitter is not a... Yeah. Facebook's more a communications medium than...

Chris Gammell: Right. It's more like a...

Dave Jones: In that case, so that's an argument for what you're talking against. So that's an... Twitter is actually better... Twitter is better for just announcing news and a one-way push medium. That's it. That's a technically... I disagree with that. It's a poor two-way medium. It really is. You think it's good because you have... Because I use it that way. Because you're talking... Because you're using it to talk to people directly. But when you're talking huge companies like this, who do you want to talk to? Well, let's get down to brass tacks. Do you want to get to the talk to... I was going to say, I just want to... Who designed the chips?

Chris Gammell: I want to talk to them and tell them my problems. They want them to fix them. That's what I really want. That's what I want right now. Right. I want it.

Dave Jones: Well, then they should listen, but...

Chris Gammell: Well, they won't though because I'm not... I don't have dollars in my pocket. I'm not buying part.

Dave Jones: Well, and because it's only a push service for them. Well, that's up to them. Right. I mean, there's not necessarily anything bad. Sometimes I just want that.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: You know, I don't want to hear them yapping on. I just want to hear about their new chips coming out.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I disagree. I don't want to hear...

Dave Jones: I don't want to get them communicating with everyone else. You know, everyone's sending their complaints or questions to them and they're answering, replying on Twitter and that's clogging up my inbox. See, I think that's good though.

Chris Gammell: I think that's good because then you see... So say I go and I see that you have a problem with, you know, chip 1234X, right? Yeah. And then I'm like, oh, I have a problem with 1234X. I'm going to actually pay attention then. I think that's when it's good.

Dave Jones: Yeah, but it's a bandwidth problem. I mean, you know, unless you've got all day to sit there watching Twitter like you do, you follow like 1,000 people or something. I mean, yeah, I follow 1,000 people but I don't sit there all day. Right? I follow 50. It's different, right? Yeah, okay. I suppose so. Yeah, that would clog up your Twitter. It depends how much information you want to be flooded with. Sometimes I just want, you know, I like just signing up to get an announcement type thing. Whereas people I'm more intimately involved in like yourself and Jerry and other people on Twitter, right? Then, yeah, you want to see all the two-way conversation happening but not for everyone. So... Dave Jones and I are not intimately involved. No, we aren't. Apart from doing a radio show together.

Chris Gammell: Right, right. Yeah. Just want to clear the air. Right. Not intimately involved with Dave Jones. Or with Jerry. Or with Jerry, right. Well, that was you saying intimately involved with Jerry. So, whatever. Yes.

Dave Jones: But, yeah, we're more, you know, we're more at the friends level. So, we want to, you know, hear what... Keep in touch. It's like on Facebook. Yeah, see what's going on. We want to keep in touch and we want to hear what people are talking to them about and so forth. Right, right. You know, a little tight-knit sort of group rather... But big companies, I don't know. I mean... But, yeah, I can understand your point of view. When I complain to them on Twitter, I want a response, damn it. Yeah. Especially if it's something good.

Chris Gammell: You know, if I have something good to say. Exactly.

Dave Jones: But maybe they can do that and they can reply privately. Yeah. But then what's the value to them, you see? So, if they're going to bother to reply, then, you know, it's... It's similar to my blog where people always send me, you know, personal emails. Can you talk, you know, can you answer my question? Well, no, not really. I've got to spend the time to answer it and then only you see it. What a waste of content. Right. So, now I tell them to go to the forum and I'll answer it on the forum. You know, at least... Oh, that's a good idea. ...you know, hundreds of people get to see it and it's there. It's on the record. It's content, you know?

Chris Gammell: And you're not just doing that for content. You're also doing that so if someone has that question later...

Dave Jones: If somebody else has a question, it'll show up on Google search or something, you know? Of course. That's why you do it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. What's so funny? You just sound like a marketer. It's like, oh, I need content. It's like, no, you're doing that so you don't have to be asked the same question twice. That's what it really comes down to, right? Well, no.

Dave Jones: And I love generating content. I love generating content. You know, I love putting content out there.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. And, yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway, because I spent decades, you know, writing people personal emails and writing letters back when, you know, handwriting letters. I spent decades doing that. And where have they gone? Where's that information gone? It's just been pissed away. And there was so much valuable information I put out there and gave them.

Chris Gammell: Man, wouldn't that be crazy if you just got all those letters back one day?

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah.

Chris Gammell: That'd be...

Chris Gammell: Man, that would be a time warp, wouldn't it?

Chris Gammell: That'd be freaky. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: You'd be like, no, no, I was completely wrong here. I hope you didn't use this. Right. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I, you know, I just want to spend my time... I just want to make my time more valuable now. You know, when I spend the time to say something, I want more than one person to hear it now.

Chris Gammell: I think you just described the human dilemma, Dave.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: You know, like...

Chris Gammell: Okay, yeah. I want to help people. Everyone needs to be seen and heard. Yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But that's... I mean, that's a good way to say it, though, I think. You know? Really? Well... At least we have the medium to do it now. So that's good.

Dave Jones: Of course. Everyone has the medium to do it. They do. And... You know? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And we... First off, we love everybody for listening. Thank you for listening, people. Thank you very much. And we want to hear about your stuff, too. We want to talk about it on here. So, yeah. You know, let us know. If you have a new site, send it on in. We love hearing about it. And we want to tell others. Right.

Dave Jones: So how about... Oh, well, that's enough crapping on about that.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Where did that come from? Where did that... Jeez, there's so many non-sequiturs in this show.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So many tangents. I was complaining about Twitter. Yeah. Right. Okay. Companies. Yeah, and it just got out there. Right. Okay.

Dave Jones: Companies and Twitter. Okay. So that wasn't off the mark. Yeah, not too bad. That wasn't too much of a tangent there. Yeah. Anyway.

Chris Gammell: Did you see this link I posted about instrumentation amps and EEGs, stuff like that? No, I didn't. No? Tell us all about it. So basically, there's a company that's kind of moving forward with brain control. So we've seen a lot of toys out there. I think we've shown the video on here once or twice before. Basically, though, they read EEGs and they characterize the waveform in software. And then based on that, when you once again create that waveform with your mind, then it will map that to an action, right? So the...

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah. People are doing that with game controllers. You can control a game with your EEG. Right. Just thinking about moving left and you move left. Exactly.

Chris Gammell: Exactly. And there's other variations on that, too. Like there's the... We talked about the Waterloo Labs where they actually had it on your eyes. And that was an instrumentation amp, too, I believe. But this is actually reading brainwaves. So I thought it was really interesting because it's starting to move. I think it's starting to move. And IEEE, the Spectrum, they're writing about it, too. It's moving away from the toy thing, though. And so they're starting to think about it seriously as like a controller for wider than the game audience.

Dave Jones: Right. Yeah. So it's kind of... But that's where it's got to take off. Right. So it gets funding and gets momentum and that sort of stuff. Exactly. Exactly.

Chris Gammell: And you do it with like the real cheap stuff and you get it in the main marketplace. And it's like the Kinect controller, too, right? Yeah, of course. People wouldn't go out and buy a Kinect to control their computers right now. But... No, of course. After seeing all these ones and all the hacks and everything, people might start to consider a higher-end one that would be more precise and do a lot of other things. So I don't know. I think it's cool. And if people don't know, the way you do an EEG and the way you do a lot of measurements on the body is with instrumentation amps, which I think are awesome.

Dave Jones: Yeah, they're pretty cool.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And so if people don't know what that is, basically, if you think about it with like three op amps, that's like the classic one. I was actually just reading... Yeah, it is. ...art of electronics today about it because I'm working on one right now. But basically, it's like three op amps. There's the first two are the inputs. So you have the inputs going into the first two, into each different op amp. Then there's usually a resistive network. And then that goes into a final op amp. And it can read really small signals on top of really large signals, like large common mode stuff. And that's really good for monitoring body processes. So I don't know.

Dave Jones: And then you stick your sensors on your skin. And then the differential between the two sensors gets amplified by the instrumentation amp.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. I think they're awesome. I don't know why. But I think they're awesome. And I've seen a lot of companies starting to come out with faster ones, too. And that's a really good thing because a lot of the older ones are slower, but the new ones are faster.

Dave Jones: How much bandwidth do you need for brain...

Chris Gammell: Oh, for brain stuff?

Dave Jones: Yeah, for brain stuff. What's the sort of bandwidth we're talking about there, I wonder? I've never looked into it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, I don't know. I know that you can use them on sense resistors and a lot of other things where you're monitoring stuff. And that's when you start needing a lot more bandwidth. But maybe on a human body, it would just start to create a lot of noise. I don't know.

Dave Jones: Yeah. And if you're speaking of the classic three op amp instrumentation amp, if you've never seen that, well, we can't describe it. You have to Google it. Right, that's true. Yeah. There's two voltage followers on the input and then there's a differential amplifier set up. But that relies on... You can build it with three op amps and four resistors, but that relies on the resistors being totally matched. I mean, really precisely matched. And that's the key to good performance of a differential, of an instrumentation amp, is matching those resistors. So that's why a lot of people don't bother with the classic implementation. They'll just buy like an AD620. Right. Which is the classic instrumentation amp, which has the match resistors laser trimmed and built on and they're all thermally matched and they've got the same drift and Tempco and all that sort of stuff.

Chris Gammell: That's the ones I've seen that have started to come out more with faster speeds and everything and that's what I like. So I've started to see applications for those a lot more places especially too, because especially when you're looking at really tiny signals, that's what I like them for.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Is that the chip of the week?

Chris Gammell: Chip of the week.

Dave Jones: The AD620. The classic. How long has that? That's been around a long time, the AD620.

Chris Gammell: Really?

Dave Jones: I'd like to know when that first came out. Yeah. Because it's like the industry standard instrumentation amp and you set the gain with a single resistor. You know, the gain can be set from one to a thousand or something like that. Yeah. That's pretty awesome. And then they've got a lower cost version, which is the AD623, I think it is, which is a more recent sort of, you know, lower spec kind of one. Because the AD620, even though it's old, it's pretty high spec. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And I was reading in Art of Electronics, they mentioned INA 111. INA is another line of them. So that's cool too. Yeah. That's older, I think.

Dave Jones: They were Burr Brown, I believe. That was Burr Brown. And Burr Brown were bought by TI. That's right. Yep. Yeah, I used to love Burr Brown parts. Yeah. And I still often call them Burr Brown, even though they're TI parts.

Chris Gammell: I think they still brand them in-house as Burr Brown sometimes too, because you've got all these old analog dudes with, you know, posters of middle fingers on their wall.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: And that's how they refer to them, you know? And I think TI bought Unitrode too, that's another power company. Yep. And that just happens, you know? Like you get used to the brand name and that's how you refer to it. Of course. Yeah. So.

Dave Jones: Oh, is that on the list? There was another company who changed names this week. Oh, yeah. Here it is. Tyco. Right. Here we go. Yeah. I got an email alert that Tyco, you know, I've been, you know, when you hear the word Tyco, you know. Connectors. They make connectors, right? Tyco are connectors. You associate that with. I don't know how long they've been around. Ever since I was a kid, anyway. Anyway. And now they're called TE Connectivity.

Chris Gammell: Ooh.

Dave Jones: How much do they pay a consultant to figure out the name TE Connectivity? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And don't forget the new logo that I'm sure they have. I haven't seen it, but.

Dave Jones: Oh, I haven't. Yeah. I can't say I've seen the logo. I'm sure there's a new wank logo. They paid $100,000 to some. Exactly. Creative services company to get it. Oh, man. Idiots. Yeah. What's wrong with Tyco? What was wrong with your market that you had to go and spend probably, it's going to cost them millions of dollars. Oh, yeah. To change that name. By the time the, you know, just changing signage and, you know, changing a sign on the front of your building can cost $100,000 sometimes. I know. You know? I don't get you. It's crazy.

Chris Gammell: I don't get why they do those rebranding efforts. I feel like that's just kind of boredom in the marketing department or something, and they're just like, well.

Dave Jones: It is. They need to, yeah. I don't know. Sometimes it makes sense, you know, because the company's been damaged or they're changed totally in their market, what they're actually, you know, doing.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. Like their product kills someone and they need to rebrand it.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Exactly.

Chris Gammell: Which is horrible, but.

Dave Jones: Well, it happens, you know.

Chris Gammell: I guess so. Yeah. It doesn't make it any less horrible. Kool-Aid? Anyone? Kool-Aid. Oh, boy.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Let's not go there. Yeah. Oh, boy.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. So, I don't know. Hopefully, uh.

Chris Gammell: Hopefully, a lot of.

Chris Gammell: I mean, like, what are they supposed to do now? Like, are they. Do you know if they've changed what they're actually doing or what?

Dave Jones: No. I believe they're just still making the same connectors they used to, but now they call themselves TE connectivity. Instead of Tyco. Oh.

Chris Gammell: And you know, for a while.

Dave Jones: It doesn't even roll off the tongue.

Chris Gammell: Right. They're just going to be like, formerly Tyco. That's what they'll say.

Dave Jones: Right. Yeah. Formerly Tyco. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Another one who needs my $2 to buy a clue. Yeah. I think that's who I mentioned. I think I tweeted that to him. Oh, okay. Maybe.

Chris Gammell: So, yeah. I don't know. Dickheads. Yeah. Anyway. How many rants is that for me today?

Chris Gammell: That's like at least three. We're getting out there. Yeah, I think it's three. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: All right. Oh, there might be more to come. I don't know.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's.

Dave Jones: They just pop out.

Chris Gammell: Another. How about another company that's. They changed. I don't know if they changed their name or they just confounded it in the US versus the UK. But did you know that RS Electronics is actually allied in the US?

Dave Jones: Are they?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: They're actually allied.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: RS Components. Yep. Who's actually a UK.

Chris Gammell: That's a UK based company.

Dave Jones: Yep. A UK based company. They're called RS Components here in Australia. Yep. And they're actually allied electronics, are they? Yes, they are. They have no idea. Oh, there you go. Another stupid. Freaking. And you know the Element 14 name change.

Chris Gammell: Right. Well, we mentioned that before.

Dave Jones: I found out that was pretty. That wasn't. You know, that didn't include Newark or anything like that. They're still running bloody Newark.

Speaker ?: You know.

Dave Jones: Right. And they're still running a funnel somewhere. It might be in the UK. In Australia, they've definitely changed it to Element 14. They completely rebranded. Rebranded. But they're still. Now they're running the three names.

Chris Gammell: Oops.

Dave Jones: Ah. Idiots of the week.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Idiots of the week.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: Well, I wanted to talk about RS or Allied or whoever they are because of their. Right. Their change to their tool. So we've talked on here before about.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yes.

Chris Gammell: About Eagle and how Eagle should be free because RS Design Spark does have a free tool.

Dave Jones: Free Eagle. Free Eagle. Free.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. We need a chant like a.

Dave Jones: Free Eagle. Free Eagle. Free Eagle. Free Eagle.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. And yeah, that worked fantastically, didn't it? Well, it did. We got their attention. They actually recognized that we were, you know. That's true. Shooting for that. And they came back with typical marketing bullshit that no, no. We actually know what we're doing and you guys don't know shit. Right. So. Well, I got them on Twitter.

Chris Gammell: So that's a good start. That's a good start for them. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. Not free yet. But, you know, I've been trying out. They just came out with the second edition of the second rev, I guess. Yes, they did. Of Design Spark. And you've mentioned before that Design Spark is actually based on a different company. Or it is. They bought it wholesale from another company, right?

Dave Jones: They. It is. I believe it's based on Humber One Systems. Okay. In their. Oh. I don't know where they're based. Sorry. But, yeah. If you go to the Number One Systems site, it's exactly. Yeah. Yeah. They're still running. They didn't buy them. Unlike Element 14. Right. How they bought. Farnells who bought Eagle. Catsoft. Yeah, RS Design. Catsoft. Yeah, Eagle. I just call them Eagle. Yeah. No one calls them Catsoft. Come on. But the logo for Catsoft is an Eagle, so. Right. Okay. That's an interesting story. I've got to tell this. Okay. Here in Australia, okay, it was probably back in the 80s, I think, there was this carpet company. Okay. Total. Trust me. It'll tie in.

Chris Gammell: Okay.

Dave Jones: Okay. It's about naming and branding and all that sort of stuff. They had these ads on TV, these really annoying ads where the guy would come, the owner of the company would come on and his son would be on there. Tell us the price, son. And they would have a slogan saying, we are the little doers and you will save. That was their slogan. And then once these ads came out, they were massively popular. You know, these annoying ads become popular. Right. Oh, yeah. And people started looking in the phone book for a company called Little Doer Carpets. And they couldn't find them because they weren't called Little Doer Carpets.

Chris Gammell: Oh, my God.

Dave Jones: And their catchphrase was, we are the little doers and you will save, you know. And it was like they pounded that into you and they weren't called Little Doer Carpets. Oh, my God. No one could find them. But they were smart enough to instantly realize that to change their name. So, now they're called Little Doer Carpets. And it was just one of those classic, you know, they just didn't think about it. Yeah. And when they advertised something, the catchphrase caught on and people associated that. It's the same thing with the company. It's like Eagle. You associate Eagle with the company. You don't associate Cadsoft. Who's that?

Chris Gammell: Right. Exactly.

Dave Jones: You know, it's like, yeah. So, there you go.

Chris Gammell: It's funny how much that kind of advertising too has effect on our lives. Because I can name one commercial that I will always remember. I grew up in Buffalo, New York. What's that? And there was one, the Diamond King. And it was this, there's this doofy looking dude. He was probably like in his 60s. He looked like he was kind of a drunk. And he was wearing this shitty crown on his head. And it was, you could tell it was shot with like a VHS, like over the shoulder camera. Brilliant. And it would just pan to him at the end. He'd be like, I'm the king. That's all I remember. That's all I remember about the coin. Yeah. You know, everybody has that though. Everybody has like one. Of course. Of course. Advertising where it just kind of kept playing over and over on their favorite channel or whatever. Yeah. And even radio too. And oh my God. So, don't.

Dave Jones: And it gets in your head. It really does.

Chris Gammell: It does. Annoying advertising works as much as it's annoying. So.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: Oh dear. Anyways.

Dave Jones: There's a whole TV show here in Australia that actually analyzes all that stuff. Oh yeah. It's a popular show here and they advertise how they, it's a talk show kind of thing and they talk about how advertising works and all that sort of stuff. So, it's really good. Nice. One of my favorite shows.

Chris Gammell: So, Design Spark. Let's get back to that.

Dave Jones: Design Spark. Yes. They've bought out a new version. I haven't downloaded and played with it yet, but it is version two. And I think their big selling point is that it now has 3D capability.

Chris Gammell: That's right.

Dave Jones: Which looks pretty good. Yeah. Yeah, it does. Yeah. And I'm not sure if all the components in the libraries have come with the 3D models yet or actually what the deal is there.

Chris Gammell: I would wonder about that. So, what if you put in a new package? Is it just going to be some generic shape or do you have to actually put in, I mean, I don't know.

Dave Jones: Usually, packages like Altium will have a generic box shape and you just set the height of the component. And if you just set the height, then it's just a box. You know, it'll actually render a box based on the silkscreen outline or something. Yeah. Yeah. Like that. It'll just render a box. That makes sense. And then I guess the key question is how easy is it to import 3D models because a lot of manufacturers are going to the STEP format, which is sort of an industry standard 3D model file format. So, I guess it depends. And I think IGES is another format, if I'm pronouncing that correctly, file format. So, you know, if you go to like Samtech, who's a connector manufacturer, you can go in and download all the 3D models and they'll come in. They're only available in a couple of different formats. Right, right. You know. Yeah. I've seen those before. But that's nice to have. If they do have that model, it's brilliant. You just download it from the website, plug it into your component, just set the position of it and bingo. Yeah. You've got the full realistic 3D model and it's worth a couple of minutes doing that. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And there's actually an example project. I'm looking at it right now. So, if people download it, there's just an analog circuit and they spell analog wrong. I don't know what the hell is wrong with them. U-E at the end. How do they spell analog? They use a U-E. Yeah, U-E. Right. I know. Okay. Which is actually probably the right. But yeah, it's pretty smooth. I mean, it's amazing that this stuff is free, you know? Yeah. I don't know. They don't really ask for it. I mean, they ask for registration and they want you to be part of the forums. But other than that, there's not- That's the DesignSpark, yeah. But that's not that bad. I mean-

Dave Jones: No, it's not that bad. You can put fake details there to register and get it. At least it's free. Yeah. So I guess the next step is, I don't know what file format it uses for their PCB and schematic file. Is it like a- because Eagle are moving towards like an open source XML file format.

Chris Gammell: That is awesome. I like that.

Dave Jones: Yeah, that's great. So I don't know where the DesignSpark software is at that level. Right. And apparently the other big selling, the other big point with the new version 2 software is that they've fixed a lot of bugs everyone's been complaining about. Yeah. Rather than add new features, they've actually gone in and, you know, tidied things up and fixed things.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That's terrific. The only thing I- so I'm just learning it now too, and I've been trying it out because I'm not really planning on buying a license of Eagle for my home stuff yet, but- or at all for that matter. But the thing I haven't been able to figure out yet, I just bought these two monitors. You saw that in my video, but I don't know how to separate out the windows. And that- that's like a killer for me. If I can't separate the- it's like, what the hell do I get these monitors for? And that's why people have two monitors.

Speaker ?: Well, that's easy.

Dave Jones: That's built into windows. Yeah, it's built into windows. What do you mean? You just have a video card that supports two monitors and- No, no. I've got a key on my notebook here. No, no.

Chris Gammell: I know- I know how to do that. I'm saying that- Right. You can't separate out the windows, basically.

Dave Jones: Oh, as in, right, the software.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Right. So if I can't open this-

Dave Jones: Yeah, the software has to support it. Right.

Chris Gammell: Exactly. So if that's done, that's a deal breaker if that's the case.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, my new video editing software, Ulead Corel Video Studio X4, I just upgraded to. Ooh. That's the only major- Yeah. Anyway, I bought it. And that's the only major new feature is that you can actually split the windows out to a second monitor now. Yeah. So I can have my big head in one monitor and, you know, and all the edit timeline and everything else on the other monitor. Yeah. Yeah. But, yeah, the actual programs have to support that. Yeah. So, yeah, I'm not sure if they do.

Chris Gammell: We've talked about 3D before. I'm looking at this 3D model right now. And it's like, it's cool. And we've talked about it on here before. But why do I need this again? Is it- 3D models? Exporting? It's great. Is that the real thing? I mean, like-

Dave Jones: No, it's brilliant. You can see- Well, there's two reasons. A, you can see what your component's actually going to look like, what your board's going to look like. And B, that it actually fits your holes and things like that. Your holes are in the right place. They're the right diameter. You can do DRC checking on the 3D models. Yeah, but not- Probably not on DesignSpark.

Chris Gammell: Unless you roll it into another 3D packaging program. Not a packaging, but unless you have a 3D mechanical model, then this is kind of worthless, right?

Dave Jones: Well, that's the whole idea, is that the manufacturers have these models available. And you download them from their site and you plug them in. No, no.

Chris Gammell: And then- I mean as an output though, right? So I output a board, right? And it's all populated with these 3D parts.

Chris Gammell: Okay.

Chris Gammell: Unless I'm- I guess I'd have to give it to like a mechanical engineer or do it myself even. Like, is that the point? Is to have this output-

Dave Jones: Well, it depends on your package. Something like DesignSpark is only on the screen, right? You can't import a case. Well, I don't know. I might be talking out my ass here. I haven't used it. But packages like Altium Designer, you can import your case as well. And then you can insert your board in your case and make sure all the connectors fit the cutouts on the front panel. And it'll show up. It'll highlight red, you know, if it doesn't fit. And so they actually do a DRC check on the mechanical parts as well.

Chris Gammell: So I'm thinking about this as an exporting kind of thing where I think about like a DesignSpark. If I could export it and put it into like a SketchUp, right? Like I could check it like there. Right. But you're talking about actually having other packages outside of DesignSpark actually bring models in. And then you check it internally to the board design package.

Dave Jones: You check it internally. But if DesignSpark doesn't have that capability built in that it can do DRCs, then yes, you'll have to export it into a 3D package that allows you to move things around and then see if it fits.

Chris Gammell: So for right now, unless I could figure out how to export this, which I haven't figured out yet, but that doesn't mean a darn thing. Right. Then there's really not much value in this. This is more eye candy.

Dave Jones: I bet it's great eye candy because you can put up, you know, if you haven't built your prototype yet, you can put up a photo on your website and you can go get funding. Here it is. Like, you know, it's finished, but I haven't built it yet. But, you know, and you can make it look photo realistic.

Chris Gammell: Please allow six to eight weeks for delivery.

Dave Jones: Right. Yeah. Haven't actually turned the key yet on any of it.

Chris Gammell: Dave, I have a perpetual motion machine. I can show you an awesome 3D model.

Dave Jones: Awesome 3D model of it. Yeah. Awesome. I'll buy in now. Yeah. Where do I send my money?

Chris Gammell: Buy today before everybody else does.

Dave Jones: Right. But no, you'll get used to just, you know, having that capability. It's awesome. Actually, one of the key benefits for me for 3D is not necessarily the components. Like, there's a lot of times I'll just turn the components off and I just want to see my bare board. So I can see, like, the solder mask expansion. I can see exactly what the silk screen is going to look like. Is it overlaying pads? Is it, you know, all that sort of stuff. Yeah, that's better than when it calls out. I don't know how Design Spark works in that respect.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's better than when it just calls out, like, where it's actually overlaying. That's kind of annoying.

Dave Jones: Yeah, because otherwise, if you're working in 2D mode, you've got to get your colors right on your different layers and set the transparencies and everything else to sort of, you know, to get it to look photorealistic. But the key with the 3D modes is that it looks photorealistic. So you can see what your bare board is going to look like. Yeah. And that stops, you know, it stops mistakes on your board and re-spins and things like that. So it does save you a lot of time and effort. That's pretty cool. It really does. Yeah, it's awesome.

Chris Gammell: So what else is new on this thing? So you can component edit. You know, the thing that actually caught my eye about this, and definitely a big shout out to Design Spark about this, is the fact that they, this is feedback from users. So that alone, like the fact that they're advertising that, you know, CADsoft could just as easily be doing this or other board packages could just as easily be doing this. But that's what caught my eye was the fact that, hey, re-roll these changes back and if you need more stuff, let us know. You might have to wait to the next rev. But that's, you know, that's at least a soft plus one for me. Right.

Dave Jones: Absolutely. So, yeah, go and check it out.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, definitely.

Dave Jones: Can't be free. Maybe we should have asked them for some sponsorship money. There you go, we talked about them too much.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. Oh, well. Not to worry. We'll get free software for now.

Dave Jones: Yeah, hey, send us a copy for free. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Awesome.

Dave Jones: Great. I think we've got a couple of minutes left. Five minutes left. What to put on here. So much, so little time.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I saw another article on IEEE. They've had some good stuff lately. But I don't want to talk about that. I found something else. All right. Do it. So, it's actually related to the PCB. That's why. Okay. Yeah. So, there's an article by David Brooks on, or no, sorry, Paul Krugman on New York Times about the falling demand for brains. And basically because computer intelligence is exponential, right? And basically humans are getting forced out of jobs. And my question for you and listeners and rhetorically for myself, I suppose, would be, are there ever going to be enough jobs again? Because, like, computers can do so much stuff now. And do we actually downgrade what computers can do so that humans can have jobs?

Dave Jones: Well, I don't think so. There's a natural point where computers can only do so much. You know, they're a tool that humans use. Yeah. Unless you start talking robots, right? That can physically do things that humans can't. That's a, I don't know if you want to go there, because that's an entirely different thing. Yeah, I don't think, I think that'd be a bit of a stretch. But if you just talk about, yeah, I mean, what can, computers are just a tool. They get better and better, but they're not going to replace us. It's not like they're going to design a chip. That's, you know. You just go, I want a chip that does it. Boom. There it is. How about this?

Chris Gammell: How about tomorrow? What if a designer came out with some evolutionary type algorithm so that chips could design themselves, right? And it took, you know, maybe three years for a computer to crunch on a design, but it came up with a chip that was equivalent to what it took a team to do in one and a half years.

Dave Jones: Yeah, but I reckon that it's like auto-routing, you know? You have to really do it 100% absolutely perfectly the way you want.

Chris Gammell: Okay. Okay. Okay.

Dave Jones: You've got to put so much effort in up front to detail what you want. Well, you may as well just do it yourself.

Chris Gammell: Right. But that, okay, so say it only takes away 90% of the work, right? So a computer can do, you set up the first 10%, the computer will stick with auto-routing. Auto-routing algorithms become perfect, right? What happens then to all the layout design? Like, I'm not saying that this is a reason not to have, or that we should worry, right? Because.

Dave Jones: Well, we're probably reasonably close, getting towards that level already. Yeah. With stuff. I mean, all chips that, you know, a lot of chips are designed in HDL, right? Right. A high-definition language, which is very, you know, you design in abstract terms what you want, and the computer does the rest, right? It lays out the, you know, it lays out the chip and does everything else.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Pretty much. Right. As a, you know, at a general level. So we're, you could say we're already there, kind of.

Chris Gammell: We keep abstracting, right? That's kind of the idea. We abstract away.

Dave Jones: We do keep abstracting, but there's only a certain level you can abstract to before, you know.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, but there's going to be.

Dave Jones: Like, I mean, the ultimate level will be, I want a widget, you know? Right. And then it will think, the intelligence will think, oh, what kind of widget do you want? Yeah. And it'll interpret what you want and go and do it. But that's just bullshit. Right. But we think about that.

Chris Gammell: High in the sky stuff. We think about that from an electronics design perspective. So this is more of a larger question, too. Right. There's another New York Times article about how lawyers are running out of jobs because, A, there's a huge oversupply. That's a different issue. But, B, the people that used to go out and look through all these law techs, you know, looking for cases, it's now being narrowed down by computers. And then that final output, you know, lawyers pour through that and they find their stuff and they get paid their absurd rates after that.

Dave Jones: That's a natural progression. We've been going through it for the last 30 years since computers have really, since personal computers have boomed.

Chris Gammell: Right.

Dave Jones: Really? There's nothing new there. That's, you know.

Chris Gammell: But the question is, is eventually, is there going to be a point where computers can do so much that it can, that there's so few jobs then based on that? That's...

Dave Jones: No. No. You don't think so? The answer's no. Not.

Chris Gammell: All right. Sorry. You heard it here, folks. First, folks. Yep.

Dave Jones: Well, because it would have happened already. Computers are phenomenal capability. They've taken away hundreds of millions of jobs over the last 30 years. I wouldn't even like to calculate it, right? But it's in that sort of order. It's got to be. Yeah. Yet, people still have jobs, right? Unemployment's remained the same pretty much apart from the usual global, you know, the recessions and everything else, right? It's still remained the same. Everyone still has a job. Why? You know, it's... Because there's just... There's always going to be jobs out there. Well... So, it's just crazy to think that.

Chris Gammell: I'm never advocating for, like, you know, not advancing technology in the place of giving people jobs because that's ridiculous. Like, that's... I don't think that's right. But I could still envision a time when computers are so good at doing things that there is less need for jobs than there are people to fill them, especially with emerging third world countries, which is a different argument entirely, right? But that is still a factor, I think.

Dave Jones: But the world doesn't stay the same. The world changes. As computers evolve, jobs and the needs for certain types of jobs will evolve as well.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: So, you know, it balances out in the end. That's why computers haven't... You know, sure, you know, if you go to a factory which is manufacturing cars, nobody... You know, they're all done by robots now.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Right? Has that... Well, yeah, it's displaced jobs, but the overall global, you know, the country unemployment hasn't gone up, has it? No. You know, other things, other aspects of life change where you just find new industries and things like that that computers can't do.

Chris Gammell: Well... And they won't be able to do. I'm glad you're so optimistic about it, Dave. I'm... Yeah, I'm bloody optimistic. Yep. That's good. Actually, as one last note, I actually went to an industrial surplus shop. So I got to see all the old Ohio, like, drill presses and everything. It was an awesome place. It was kind of like that tour you did. Where are the photos? They're impending. They'll be on my site probably some night or tomorrow. Right. But yeah, it was awesome. So many old pieces of equipment. But that's... Nice. That's another thing that got me kind of thinking about it. You know, like, there's just all this gear that was designed for human controllers and no, that's not needed anymore. We have robot controllers.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: So those people moved on.

Dave Jones: Ah. Computers are not the new overlords. I'm sorry. No. Dave Jones is the new overlord. Right. Isn't it Jerry? Doesn't she want to rule the world?

Chris Gammell: Oh, I don't know.

Dave Jones: She keeps tweeting that all the time, I think.

Chris Gammell: Scary. Yeah.

Dave Jones: It is. Yep. Oh, boy. Anyway, I think our amp hour's up.

Chris Gammell: I think so.

Dave Jones: We're out of cool homes.

Chris Gammell: Yes.

Dave Jones: What the hell was on this week's show? I don't know.

Chris Gammell: It'll be in the show notes. How about that? Awesome. Yeah.

Dave Jones: And we have to think of a name for it.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. We'll get there.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: It's tough.

Dave Jones: Thanks for joining us, everyone. All right.

Chris Gammell: We'll see you next week.

Dave Jones: See ya. See ya.

Dave Jones: See ya.

Speaker ?: See ya. See ya. See ya. www.fema.org