#29 – DJ and Jazzy Jeff

Speaker ?: Music

Dave Jones: Welcome to the Amp Hour, I'm Dave Jones from the EEV Blog.

Jeff Kaiser: And I'm Jeff Kaiser, who's actually not Chris Gammell this week. What? Hi Dave. Hey Jeff, where's Chris? I don't know, I think he ran off to some kind of a job interviewing thing. That's right, a job fair.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: Or whatever it is.

Dave Jones: Are they called job fairs in the US, is that what they're called?

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely.

Dave Jones: Right. See, this is a foreign concept to us Aussies, because we don't really have job fairs. So they actually set them up at the universities, do they?

Jeff Kaiser: Oh yeah, yeah. This is a big thing. I can remember during the dot-com boom at my university that all these big companies like Microsoft, and it seemed like it was always mostly the software companies. Okay. You know, they set up booths, and they try to get young whippersnappers interested in their company. And it's really, you know, I always felt like they come out there just to make a show of it, because, you know, they get thousands of resumes from interested, you know, college students. But, you know, that only a fraction of a percent of those actually get anywhere, right?

Dave Jones: Oh, of course. I mean, I was talking to Chris, and he mentioned that he was actually, they were actually going there to hire people, like, on the spot, like, over a dozen people or something. Wow.

Jeff Kaiser: Well, that's great. That's great. I mean, it's great for those people.

Speaker ?: So is that common?

Dave Jones: Is that, like, to actually hire somebody on the spot, or?

Jeff Kaiser: I, it certainly wasn't common whenever I was interviewing. I mean, maybe they just didn't think very highly of my qualifications. Yeah, that seems unusual to me, but I guess in maybe in this, today's world, it's a little bit different than it was back whenever I was doing the same thing.

Dave Jones: Hmm, interesting. I mean, we don't really have those job fairs here. I mean, there are a couple, maybe a few token companies turn up, but as you said, they're just there to show off, really. They're not there to, you know, hire, you know, hundreds of people on mass for, you know, steal all these graduates to, you know, to actually work for cheap.

Jeff Kaiser: And I think usually you get the booth, and of course, you know, the main thing that the university student is interested in is the free stuff. Ah, right. The giveaways.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I think we've mentioned that on the show before.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, you get your little pen or your squishy ball or little LED, you know, button or something like that. Right. Yeah, it's, it's, I feel like the, the main reason that these things happen is because human resources has some, you know, directive that they're supposed to be recruiting from some top universities. And then you end up with, you know, there's a couple sales guys usually, and then there's a couple engineers who got dragged along, and they're being forced to stand out there.

Dave Jones: For an engineer, that's death, you know.

Jeff Kaiser: But I'm sure that, you know, Chris's is entirely not like this, and his is, you know, a very well-planned, carefully executed, you know, event that his employer is.

Dave Jones: I'm sure, yeah. And he said he's interviewing people. I think he tweeted that he has to ask people questions about C programming or something, and that's not his strong point. So, he was a bit concerned in his tweet that someone would actually show him up and say, that's a stupid question.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, you know, I can actually identify with that, because I've had to interview before, and I don't like interviewing at all, because I feel like you very rarely actually really get to see the true nature of the person that you're interviewing, because they're so stressed out that how can they possibly present themselves in, you know, the same way that you'd see if you were actually right. Working with them, but, you know.

Dave Jones: Exactly.

Jeff Kaiser: It's tough.

Dave Jones: No, it's, yeah, I've done it before. I actually enjoy interviewing. Oh, you do? Yeah, I do, because it's just, A, I want to show up the smart asses, right, that lie on their resume. That's always fun. And, you know, B, I just love to, like, see what the new graduates are like, you know. I love interviewing new graduates. That's always fun. You know, are they a hobbyist? Are they, you know, just some dipshit who did it because their parents wanted them to, and they don't really know anything, and they don't care about the industry, and all that sort of stuff.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, they still have all this fresh enthusiasm that hasn't been crushed by years of working in an engineering position.

Dave Jones: Exactly. Working in the land of Dilbert.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, that's right.

Dave Jones: Oh, boy. So, how would you actually set yourself apart at those things? Because everyone's a graduate. Everyone's done the same course. I guess the only thing that would set you apart is your enthusiasm and stuff you've already done. Yeah, I think that...

Speaker ?: Right?

Dave Jones: Your hobby stuff.

Jeff Kaiser: That's right. And I think that relevant experience, like, practical experience is always a big winner. Because if you're talking about university graduates, I mean, I've always felt like most of these guys and girls have very little actual experience doing any of the things that they've been learning about. And so I think that... Absolutely. You know, if you want to set yourself apart, you know, if you've done research as an undergraduate, that's always a big plus. You know, if you've built something in your spare time and you're a hobbyist, then I know that if I was interviewing, that would really catch my eye. But if you... For sure.

Dave Jones: They go straight to the top of my list. I'm very hesitant, actually, to hire anyone who doesn't have an active interest in electronics outside of work. You know, I have occasionally, you know, because they were the best pick out of the bunch and, well, we had to pick someone, you know. But, yeah, pretty much. If you've got experience outside of work and an active interest, I'm going to pick you over even the more experienced guy, you know. So, pretty much, unless I, you know, found that you're a total dickhead or something like that and I really didn't like you, then pretty much, you know, you're really going to get in there.

Jeff Kaiser: That's a very interesting strategy. You know, I can't say that I've had that attitude. I really should bring that attitude because I should be trying to, you know, help out the fellow hobbyist. Just, I've always been so, you know, the kinds of positions I've been interviewing for have always been so hyper-specialized that I've gotten wrapped up and, you know, do they know the exact subject material and have they worked in that particular field. But I have to say that, you know, having interviewed a few people and selected a few and had, you know, helped people get jobs, sometimes the guys that have the most relevant experience, especially if it's on paper, aren't the guys that are going to really help you out whenever something goes wrong or they're not going to be the best guys in the lab. They're not going to be the ones that actually are the problem solvers. And it, you know, I think that there's definitely something to be said for if somebody is actually taking an interest outside of their, you know, at the end of their nine to five and they're doing hobby electronics at home, obviously they have some kind of a drive that's probably going to help them in their day job, right?

Dave Jones: Oh, for sure. Sure. It's, it's no contest. And you mentioned that you don't really get to know the real person in the interview. And I found that too. So I really like to cut them a break if they're really nervous and stuff like that. I mean, I often have like a set of preset questions I'll give them and they're really dumb ass questions. You know, they're so simple that if you don't know these, well, you shouldn't even be in the industry, you know, like almost, you know, basic op amp, you know, building block stuff, you know, things like that. So, yeah. But often they will choke on those. And if they choke, then I, you know, that's okay. Because I know they're nervous and you get mental blocks and all that sort of stuff. So one of my favorite things is to actually give them a board, right? Just a, you know, a bare, you know, a board's got components on it and ask them to tell me something about it. You know, anything, anything at all. And I'll guide them, you know, tell me about the different footprints. Do you recognize any component footprints? Do you recognize any manufacturers? You know, things like that. So, yeah, that's really great. So, you know, it's really an open-ended question. There's no right or wrong. So then they don't feel as nervous, you know, that, oh, I have to get the right answer.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, that's a great idea. I like that a lot. Good people that understand hardware. That's a good, you know, the guy that's got the hands-on experience. You know, if you're looking for that kind of a person, then that's a big deal. And, yeah, I'll have to use that. I'm going to steal your interview idea. Yeah.

Dave Jones: And it's actually a good question, particularly because it tests their manufacturing and component knowledge, which if you're, you know, hiring a circuit designer who's going to do PCBs or working, you know, taking the board through to manufacturing, it's important, you know. If they can recognize that it's, you know, reflow soldered and they've got this packages and all that sort of stuff, then, you know, it's actually quite important.

Jeff Kaiser: You know, at my last company, we used to have this test that we would do to people, and you'd have these poor engineers. They wouldn't even know that this was going to happen to them. They'd go through part of the interview, and then we'd have our lab manager bring them into the lab and sit them down at a microscope and actually test their physical dexterity with tweezers and surface mount components. And we're not just talking, like, 08, 05s, but these were actually 01, 05s.

Dave Jones: Oh, that's pretty cruel.

Jeff Kaiser: It was like a torture test, right? And you'd see if people could do it. And you'd have these guys that were, you know, they were getting sweaty under the armpits, and they were just falling apart. That'd be shaking, and they couldn't do it. But I've got to say that some people could come in, and they could nail it. And it was really interesting to see what these guys would do under stress, you know, and you'd have the guys that just have this natural ability to stay cool under pressure. And it's kind of an interesting way of looking at somebody. I always personally felt bad for the guys, though. I felt like that's not nice.

Dave Jones: Oh, yeah, I think I would, too. Yeah, that's pretty rough. I mean, especially when they're that small. I mean, I thought you were going to just say, you know, 0402 or something like that.

Jeff Kaiser: Oh, that would be far too easy.

Speaker ?: Right.

Jeff Kaiser: Oh, goodness. But, you know, I mean, on the other hand, that's the components that they were going to work with whenever they got a job, because we were working with 01005s. Fair enough, then. That's just, I mean, if you can't do it, then you're going to be totally useless in the lab, right? So there is some wisdom to it.

Dave Jones: Right. Right. So they had no idea they were going to do that? No. Was that in, like, the job ad or the job spec?

Speaker ?: No.

Jeff Kaiser: Well, they were applying for a position doing RF power amplifier design and doing multi-chip modules. And I'm pretty sure that the word multi-chip module was somewhere in there. Yeah. And most people that have worked in that industry know that there's a lot of delicate assembly, especially because it's RF. Everything's very hands-on. There's a lot of time in the lab. So if you've got somebody who's applying for that position and isn't a lab rat, they're probably not the right person for that job. So in all fairness, you know, it is a relevant skill for that particular job field. But, you know, if he was just going to be like a software guy, that would not be appropriate.

Dave Jones: I don't think so. The first thing I would have said when, you know, if I would have said, well, what do you think about, what does multi-chip module imply to you? You know? And if they got, you know, really tiny stuff, I love working on tiny stuff, then boom, you know. Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: Put them in the next room. Yeah. In they go. Yeah. That's right.

Dave Jones: Oh, that's brilliant. I love it. Anyway, that's where Chris is. I hope he's having fun. He's having fun, apparently. So that's why he's not joining us. Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: And I'm happy to, I'm happy to substitute for him.

Dave Jones: Well, thank you very much. I didn't thank you up front. Thanks for joining us. And it's Jeff from Mighty Home. That's right. Aka Mighty Home. If you haven't checked out his blog, please do. MightyHome.com.

Jeff Kaiser: Thanks for, thanks for having me.

Dave Jones: Ah, it's nice to be had. All right.

Jeff Kaiser: So should we do Workbench of the Week?

Dave Jones: Well, I thought we'd jump into some news first. Breaking news. Okay. Breaking news. We've only got one news item. Jerry Ellsworth was thrown out of Design Con for wearing skates. Yes, you heard that right. She was actually, I went, why didn't somebody get a photo of this? Please. How many people were there? They must have known Jerry.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: You know, I can just picture them or wheeling her out.

Jeff Kaiser: I do find that interesting. You know, on one hand, I would be, I feel bad for her that she got kicked out. But on the other hand, as somebody who knows Jerry, she probably deserved it.

Dave Jones: Right. Right. Okay. Right. See, I've never actually met her, whereas you've met her.

Jeff Kaiser: She's not the type. She's probably, she was looking for trouble.

Dave Jones: Right. At Design Con. Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: That's right. Yeah.

Dave Jones: What sort of trouble would you get into at Design Con? It boggles the mind.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah. Oh, goodness. Yeah. Well, that's too bad. And maybe Design Con will put something in their rules for next year.

Dave Jones: Ah, no skates. Mmm. Maybe she'll turn up with like a seeing eye dog next time or something. But I'm on skates, but I've got a seeing eye dog. It's okay. Or maybe a Segway or something like that. A Segway. Yeah. Something like that. Oh. But apparently she wore the skates for the first day and nobody hassled her. And then the second day of the thing, they, yeah, they tossed her out. We ordered her out, I guess.

Jeff Kaiser: Maybe she was talking shit about HP or something like that. Right. You know, they got offended.

Dave Jones: I guess maybe somebody did get offended. Somebody dobbed on her, obviously. Somebody went, that's not appropriate. Right. You know, ah, God. You know. Yeah, even if she was looking for trouble, I don't care. That's just, that's taking the fun out of it, really. Bunch of killjoys. Yeah. Don't like them. Yeah. But then again, I can imagine the trouble she could actually cause. Because I've been to Design Con and it gets packed. You know, it's crazy. So.

Jeff Kaiser: I'd never even heard of Design Con before. Is that weird that I've never even heard about it?

Dave Jones: Oh, not really. No. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people in the industry just don't give a shit about these sort of events. You know? And there's quite a few of them. You know, there's quite a lot of them. So not having heard about it. Well, I've got to admit, before I went, I'd only, you know, heard about it in passing or something like that. So, yeah. I didn't really know much about it.

Jeff Kaiser: Is it for people that do PCB design or embedded design?

Dave Jones: It's embedded in PCB, pretty much. That's the, you know, that's kind of the focus, I guess. I think they had Intel there when I went. I can't remember exactly. So they had like a, you know, and all the microcontroller manufacturers are all there. Your AppMills, your microchips and your TIs and all them. They're all there.

Jeff Kaiser: It sounds a lot like the Embedded Systems Conference. I've been to that one before.

Dave Jones: It is very much like ESC. ESC is probably more embedded than DesignCon. But, yeah, I don't know how. The two are very overlapping. So, yeah, I don't know how that works. I'm not sure if they're run by the same company or not. I don't think they are. I think they're run by competing companies. Because if it was the same company running them, I don't think they'd probably run both. Because they are very similar. So, yes. But I've been to ESC and DesignCon as well. They're the two shows I've been to in the U.S. Are there shows that you've been to or frequent?

Jeff Kaiser: Well, I used to go to ESC whenever I lived in the Bay Area because it was just right there. Right. And it was convenient. And I could rarely afford to actually pay my way in. So I would just go to the expo, which was a lot of fun. But I used to go to all the big RF conferences. Like IMS is the International Microwave Symposium. And that was always fun because there were a lot of really cool toys that the exhibitors would bring. You know, none of that test equipment is worth less than $100,000, it seems like.

Dave Jones: I was going to say, it's all six-digit stuff. That's right.

Jeff Kaiser: So it was kind of fun to see that. Although a lot of it is so hyper-specialized that it's more fun to go to something like ESC because you actually see consumer electronics hardware. And the companies have more recognizable names in some cases. So it's kind of a different experience. But, yeah, you know, I'm not really much for conferences in general. You know, I can enjoy the exhibitor stuff. But a lot of times the talks are just not that interesting to me. Maybe I'm just not very good at watching a talk and actually learning while somebody's up there showing slides. If I just get the proceedings, I'm usually pretty satisfied.

Dave Jones: Yeah, Chris and I talked about that last week, I think it was. And, yeah, I'm not a big fan of the talks either unless it's somebody really interested in who I know and, you know, who I want to see live and, you know, something like that.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, a lot of them are just – it's just some guy that, you know, his manager told him he was supposed to talk on something. And, you know, he's up there and he's got a bunch of slides and it's just not that interesting.

Dave Jones: Yeah, PowerPoint. That's right. You know, PowerPoint slides. Death by PowerPoint, they call it. Yeah. In Dilbert world. Yes. Yeah, especially if you can download it later, you usually can. So what's the point going? You know, especially some of them you have to pay to go to. Yeah, they're always like thousands of dollars.

Jeff Kaiser: They're not inexpensive. And if the company's paying it, then, you know, that's fine. Yeah. Yeah, if you're paying your own way, it's impossible.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, I've actually – have you ever been on a trade show stand, as in man in the stand? I have. Which is a very sexist term.

Jeff Kaiser: I have and I ran away as fast as I possibly could. Because as soon as people come up and they figure out that you designed the part that they're asking questions about, they will not leave you alone ever again. And the first rule is never, ever, ever give out your business card. Because these guys will have a private line to your desk. And that's the – as an engineer, you want to hide in your cubicle and you don't want to have any contact with the outside world and especially with the customers. Because the customers, you know, they might have some questions that you don't know the answers to, right? So you try to – or they may ask you about things, you know. They may ask you about things that you're not supposed to talk about. So I – it always – I've done it probably once or maybe twice. And it was always a very nervous kind of a thing. I was very uneasy with it.

Dave Jones: Right. Okay. Yeah, I – yeah, I was like the hardware guy on the stand, you know. And so anyone who'd come in with the hardware questions, they'd be thrown over to me, which was most people, you know, because they didn't care about how much the product costs or something like that. They just wanted to know some technical, you know, detail or something like that. So they'd – yeah, so they'd come over to me and I actually enjoyed it, you know, rather. And I was handing out my business card and stuff like that. And I didn't get hassled. But I guess if you're, you know – yeah, I guess you have to be really careful with that sort of thing. Yeah, it's very intimidating.

Jeff Kaiser: I found it very intimidating because, you know, they come from a different perspective. They're actually using the product and so they care about a different set of things than the engineer cares who's designing it. And it's – I found – I was always just very, very – I don't know. Maybe I was just shy. But, you know, these guys would come and sometimes they'd have questions. And, you know, it's like I have no idea. You know, talk to applications about that. You know, I just designed it. I don't know how to use it. What are you talking about?

Dave Jones: I know. I always felt guilty about that. If I didn't know the answer, I feel bad, you know. Yeah, yeah. Somebody's come up to me and they've asked me a question. I don't know the answer. It's like – and I've got to push them off to someone else because I hate it when somebody does that to me. So, you know, I feel really bad. Yeah, that's right.

Jeff Kaiser: And, yeah, that's exactly right because they'd ask me questions about parts that I don't even know. You know, it's like an engineer is not always totally familiar with the entire offering of his company's, you know, every part that company makes. And that was always my weakness. They'd ask me something, you know, blah, blah, blah. And I have no idea. You know, you have to talk to somebody else about that. And I felt bad too because I felt like I should be representing the company. You know what I mean? And it's just – Yeah, absolutely. It's really hard.

Dave Jones: So, there you go, boys and girls. Don't fall into the trap of going to the trade show. Or if you do, take the free trip and then just run. That's right.

Jeff Kaiser: Run like – Just be unavailable.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Oh, I'm sick. I've got to stay in my hotel room. Oh, I had some dodgy hotel food last night. That's right. Oh, goodness. Oh, trade shows. Oh, they're fun. Yeah. But I can remember when I was a kid, you know, they were actually quite expensive to go into. But not just trade shows because we don't have – we hardly have any trade shows at all here in Sydney, you know, or in Australia for that matter. But, you know, I'd go into various other types of shows. And as a kid, they were very expensive. They might be $15, $20 to get in. I didn't have $15 or $20 to spend to get in. And I was a tight ass too. So what I'd do is actually sneak around the back, you know, in the back alleyway or something of the entire conference center. And then you would actually go in the service door. You'd actually have a box. You'd actually find a box. You'd pick one up and actually pretend that you're walking in and you're giving a delivery or something like that.

Jeff Kaiser: That's called –

Dave Jones: And they'd just wave you through.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, that's called social engineering right there.

Dave Jones: Social engineering, yeah. That's right.

Jeff Kaiser: Very good.

Dave Jones: So that's – and then everyone's walking around with a badge. But I didn't have a badge, so I had to, you know, either, A, try and hide it somehow that I kind of, sort of had a badge. Or I had to go pill for one from somewhere. So, you know, to actually make it look like I belong there.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Oh, that was fun.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: That's when I was a kid. Oh, memories. Anyway. We've been going for 23 minutes. We should get a workbench of the week. Yeah. I don't have the sound effect. Sorry. Chris has the sound effect. Nah. So, yeah. Workbench of the week. Week. I can add some reverb there. Nah, I couldn't be bothered. Anyway, what have we got this week? Leftover from last week – oh, that sounds terrible, doesn't it? Leftover – is Snakebite. I don't know his real name. His name is Snakebite. And he's got some images of his shack. Let's call him up here. He says he doesn't have an oscilloscope because he hasn't – you know, can't afford one yet. So, if anyone's got a spare oscilloscope, they want to donate Snakebite, he's on the forum. But it's a nice, tidy little bench. He's got a Fluke 87 there. He's got a hot air rework station from Pace, which is very nice. All the hand tools you need. And a power supply. What more do you want? And a bunch of hand tools.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, it looks great. I think he's got an isolation transformer, too. I think that's what that black box is on the left. Oh, is that what it is? Okay. I was actually shopping for one of those recently, and they're very expensive. How much are they going for these days? Well, in U.S. dollars, it seemed like to get a decent one, it was up around $150 for something like just 150 watts or volt amps or whatever they measure them in. And I started looking for used ones, and used is expensive, too. But not only that, but they weigh a ton. And so shipping is really expensive on them. So now I'm trying to score something on eBay or something like that, because I'm a cheapskate. I don't want to spend money on it. Right.

Dave Jones: And guess what he's got on his bench? Ta-da! A microcurrent adapter. One of my little kits. Oh, I saw that.

Jeff Kaiser: I saw that. There you go. The little red jiffy box. Yeah, that's great. Well, he pretty much guaranteed a spot on Workbench of the Week.

Dave Jones: I think he guaranteed his spot there with the microcurrent. Thanks, Snakebite. Well done. I don't think he's in any of the photos, is he?

Jeff Kaiser: No.

Dave Jones: I'm looking. No. No. Bit of a thumbs down there. You've got to be in the photo. Yeah. But no, that's all right. That's all right. So thanks, Snakebite. Nice little setup you've got there, and I hope you continue. It's a nice little. He's got one of those foam toolboxes, you know, with the, sorry, the metal, the alloy briefcase kind of thing. Yeah. And he's made little cutouts for all these little tools in there, which is awesome.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, that's really slick.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I like that. He's gone to a bit of trouble there, and even cable ties have their own little cutout. Ah, lovely. Ah, magnificent. Should have room for a multi... There's no... Or is that little pouch a little pocket multimeter or something? I don't know. Yeah, I'm not sure. Neat.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Very neat. Thanks, Snakebite. And up next, we've got... Tony.

Jeff Kaiser: Tony. Tony. And I have to take, you know, full disclosure, I prompted Tony to submit this Workbench of the Week. Ah. There you go. So I've got to be honest with you. Tony, I've known Tony for a long time, and whenever I heard I was going to be on the show, I said, Tony, you know, put your Workbench in there, and I'll be sure that you get on the show. But I think he's deserving. And if you take a look at his bench and his setup, I think he deserves to be on Workbench of the Week.

Dave Jones: Oh, absolutely. He wins the award for this week, no doubt. It brings a tear to the eye, this one. It's a really nice setup. You've got to go to the links and have a look at this. He's got a wire bonding machine, for God's sake. You know, because he's into the RF stuff. That's right. So, you know, all that, yeah, he actually, a wire, God, who the hell has a wire bonding machine? I guess you can buy them for pittance on those auction, you know, at auction, right?

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, those old Westbond manual wedge bonders go, I've seen companies throw those away, because they're not-

Dave Jones: Actually, literally in the dumpster, yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: Literally in the dumpster, because they're considered to be too primitive for, you know, you can't do anything reasonable these days with them. But if you're just doing hobby electronics at home, then having any wire bonder is much better than not having one.

Dave Jones: Well, you've got to have a need for a wire bonder.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, well, if I bought one of those home, God, the wife would roll the eyes and- Yeah. Well, he's doing Mimic stuff at home, and he's bonding up his own chips, because a lot of those microwave chips, you can only get in bare dye. You can't get them in a package. Oh, really? Okay. That's right. Because they're at 47 gigahertz or whatever he's working on, a package is- Kills it. The parasitics kill you, yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah, absolutely.

Jeff Kaiser: Oh, that's real leading-edge awesome stuff. Yeah. I love that. And I like, he's got the HP, the 851 Spectrum Analyzer. Spectrum Analyzer. Looks like it's right out of a Cold War movie or something like that.

Dave Jones: Absolutely. Like 1960s classic. Yeah. Unbelievable. Yeah. Ah, and he's got all the good stuff. He's got 10 and 24 gig radios. Ah, it's just magnificent. He's a bench meter fan. He is, yeah. He's got, like, I can see, like, maybe four bench meters there.

Jeff Kaiser: That's right. Wow. I don't think he's paid more than $20 for any one of those either. He's one of these guys that- For any one of those items, yeah. He goes to the surplus auctions and, you know, picks the stuff up for pennies on the dollar.

Dave Jones: Yep. Brilliant. Absolutely brilliant. See, we don't have that here in Australia. It's very rare to get, you know, to go to the auctions and be able to pick up a pallet load full of equipment like you can in the US. You guys just throw it out like it's confetti. I think that's, you know?

Jeff Kaiser: It's not totally true anymore. I think it used to be more true, but I think eBay really killed a lot of that because now, you know, why should a surplus company try to deal with the public whenever they can get much more exposure online? And so it's getting hard to find that stuff. But he goes to the Northrop Grumman swap meet out in Los Angeles, and that's probably one of the better swap meets in the country. You know, so he's, he's, that's not a typical example. It's actually, it's, it's still kind of hard to find that stuff. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Okay. Interesting. But yeah, I just drool over the stuff you guys can get, you know? We, yeah, we can buy it on eBay, but we have to pay 500 bucks shipping to get the damn things here. Cause they, cause they weigh a fortune, weigh a fortune. They weigh a ton. Yeah. And, um, it's just shipping's incredibly expensive. And, um, with the surplus dealers on eBay, what they do is they're the ones who go in and buy a whole pallet load full of them. They typically, I found, well, here in Australia, they aren't typically the people who are selling it. Um, so these, uh, surplus companies out there will go and buy pallet loads full of stuff. If a university is, you know, shutting down their engineering section or a company shutting down, they'll go in and buy the whole lot and then they'll sell them one by one on eBay for, you know, 50 times what they paid for it. So, well, you know, good luck to all my guests, but yeah, it really, uh, does limit the market for people who are after, you know, affordable gear. So, but still, even if you buy on eBay, you can pick up, you know, a, a one gig, an old one gig scope or spectrum analyzer for a couple of hundred bucks, which is just awesome.

Jeff Kaiser: That's right. Oh, yep.

Dave Jones: And, and you can actually fully kit out like a, uh, I said this before, like a a hundred thousand dollar lab for 500 bucks, you know, easy, trivial. I'm, I, I guess I'm just jealous. What can I say?

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah. Oh boy. It takes years. Anyway, thanks Tony. Yeah.

Dave Jones: That's an, and, and he's in the photo too. And he's happy, smiling. Look at him. Awesome. Posing proudly with his latest project, which is what? A cryogenic thing.

Jeff Kaiser: It's a cryogenic filter soon to become a cryogenic ham radio receiver. And I actually know a little bit about this. He, he bought, uh, uh, a used, uh, cryo filter from a cell site. I guess these show up on eBay. As you do. And, uh, of course. Uh, and, and I guess, uh, these things have a sterling heat pump inside, uh, that's capable of going down to liquid nitrogen temperatures and, uh, this, this stuff, you know, probably costs thousands and thousands of dollars, you know, you get it super cheap on eBay. And I guess he's trying to receive signals, uh, bounced off the moon for amateur radio. And so he, he's trying to super cool some, uh, receivers. So that's got it. That's kind of an interesting project. And, uh, I know he's having trouble, he's having trouble getting the manufacturer to release the software specifications because they don't want to have any, anything to do with the fact that, uh, you know, an ordinary person is trying to use these, uh, these, uh, very advanced technologies. And so I know that the company basically told him to go away.

Dave Jones: Oh yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: So it's really unfortunate.

Dave Jones: We can name and shame them.

Jeff Kaiser: I think it's super conductor technology. Oh, mongrels. Yeah. Yeah. So I don't know what he's going to do, but he's got to, he's going to have to reverse engineer the whole thing.

Speaker ?: Right.

Dave Jones: Oh, good luck.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Oh boy. But that's awesome. That's real engineering. You know, that's real pushing the envelope kind of stuff. You know, that, that just isn't wiring up a triple five timer or a, you know, at mill microcontroller. That's yeah. Pretty serious stuff. So yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: And you know, he's got the unfair advantage that this is also what he does for his day job. So it's not, you know, it's not just like he's some guy doing this. It hasn't ever had the experience, but.

Dave Jones: Cause there'd be so much trial and error in that sort of stuff, you know, and you have to have the gear and know how to use it as well. You know, it's not like you can wire up your 47 gigahertz, you know, transceiver and, and just test it. Yeah. You know, it's, you've got the instruments to test it are bleeding edge, you know, it's just, and, and it isn't just the instruments, but the actual probing to do it and the techniques to, ah, just the techniques alone take years to master. So really it's, um, through trial and error and experience and, and the rest of it. So yeah, my hat's certainly off to him.

Jeff Kaiser: So I, I had a question, uh, about, uh, something that I see here on the, on the, on the list. I'm just looking at the show notes and, uh, it's, you've got to explain to me what EE web is. And, and I asked that because I've heard from them, I think twice this week, they're really trying to, you know, get the links to their site and they're trying to get me to, you know, put, put the link on my page and talk about them and all this. And I looked at their site and it looks like one big DigiKey advertisement.

Dave Jones: Ah, well, they do have, um, DigiKey ads top and bottom. So presumably they've got sponsorship money from, from them. I'm sure they wouldn't do that for nothing.

Jeff Kaiser: So this is, this is not like element 14 though. DigiKey doesn't own EE web, right?

Dave Jones: No, no, no, no, no. It's run by two guys. No, nothing. As far as I know, nothing to do with DigiKey at all. I'm sure just, they're just a paying sponsor and they probably talked them into sponsoring the website. And so they've got a DigiKey search bar up the button and a DigiKey ad down the bottom. As far as I know, that's it. Um, so just as a, because I have to say it, they are an advertiser on my site. So if you see the little cartoon on my site, that links to them. Um, so, you know, actually I didn't add this to the list. Chris added it to the list, but I think it's a cool website. Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: I took a look and there's a lot of interesting information there and they've got a lot of, they've got a lot of application notes and it looks like there's a forum and, uh, they've got, uh, the comic is actually pretty funny. I went back and looked at some of the, the old strips and, uh, yeah, it looks like they're, they're building kind of an interesting portal there. But I just thought it was interesting that, you know, this is sort of like DigiKey's answer to element 14. You know, even though DigiKey doesn't own them, obviously DigiKey is probably perked up to the fact that, you know, these social networking engineering websites are coming about and, uh, you know, Newark or, or no, sorry, Premier Farnell has, uh, element 14. And, uh, I guess maybe DigiKey felt a little bit left out.

Dave Jones: Right. Yeah. I, I don't know what the deal is there. I'll have to actually ask them, but, um, I'm sure it's just nothing more than an ad advertising, you know, thing. So, because they actually pay and TGK actually pay big money to advertise. I, I know what the figures are and, um, advertise on various, you know, in all the journals, on all the websites, they love to plaster their ads everywhere. So they're really keen to actually, you know, um, have their ads on, uh, extremely popular websites, which I don't know how popular this one is yet. Um, I don't think they've had it long.

Jeff Kaiser: I think they've been around for a few months, but it seems like they've been, they've been pushing it recently. And I, so I've seen it a couple of places, but, uh, yeah, yeah. Well, I, I wish them the best of luck and, uh, you know, it looks like an interesting site and I am a fan of DigiKey, you know, I, I use DigiKey all the time. So, you know, more power to them and it's, uh, if, if they can find a way to work together, then that's great.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, uh, they've got a featured engineer segment as well. And, um, you will see my ugly mug on there shortly because they've asked me to be one of the featured engineers on their site. So there'll be a little blurb about me soon. I'm sure if I get off my ass and actually, uh, actually do it. Now the interesting thing I like about this site is that right on the front page, I mean, it's a, it's a bit busy is the buzzword. Um, you know, they've got a comic on there. They've got news items down one side, they've got quizzes, they've got side of the day, featured engineer, but down the right hand side, um, they've got all links to all these really good articles and they're always interesting. And they've got like circuits smack there on the front page. And I, I love sort of visiting there and just, you know, seeing a circuit, there it is, or seeing a link to a really cool application node or something like that. So, um, I think they've got that sort of concept right. Uh, but they are trying to do a lot of stuff. They've got a, they've got a community. You can put your resume on there. Um, you can post your projects on there. They're really trying to be a be all end all, uh, portal. There's jobs, events, um, you know, they're, yeah, they're trying to do the whole lot, which is really hard to do. Yeah. You know, when you try and bite off more than you can chew, I guess.

Jeff Kaiser: Um, well, it'll be interesting to see how the site grows and I, it's very new, so I'm sure it'll take them a little while to, you know, get all the, everything ironed out. But, uh, it does look like a pretty slick site. It's definitely very well put together.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, I'm just looking at the jobs tab here and I'm browsing the U S here, mainland, uh, U S and it's a nice little interface. It's got like the number of jobs over each state. Yeah. I see that. If I click on those, Ooh, it zooms in and yeah. Yeah. Ooh, there you go. And it shows it's all on Google maps. TI. There you go. TI have a senior systems application engineer D and a DSP. The algorithm engineer going.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Um, and you can click HP have an inter and intellectual property licensing technologist. What the hell do they do?

Jeff Kaiser: So anyway, this is a good interface for people who hate commuting.

Speaker ?: Right.

Jeff Kaiser: So they can, they can zoom in and they can say, all right, so, you know, this place is within, uh, 20 minutes of my house and, you know, it's on the right freeway and all this stuff. But, uh, yeah, I will say it's a cool, I'm just playing with it right now. It is a cool, uh, interface. It's a very, very well put together. This is the first time I've seen it. Yeah. It's great.

Dave Jones: And here's a senior analog IC designer at On Semiconductor. That's, that's pretty neat. Wow. You don't get too many jobs for analog IC designers these days. Well, certainly not here in Australia.

Jeff Kaiser: You know, we don't get anything like that here. This is great.

Dave Jones: I, yeah, I like it. So well done, EE Web. Keep it up. All right. What else have we got?

Jeff Kaiser: Oh, let's see here.

Dave Jones: Now, you posted something on here that your, this raised my eyebrows completely. They went bing. And when I saw this, where is it? You are doing a stuff you're working on. Yeah. And you mentioned that you are doing an autobiography of, or a biography of, uh, Forrest Mims.

Jeff Kaiser: No, that's not, that's not it. No, I'm, I'm not writing it. I read an autobiography of Forrest Mims. Right. I mean, think of it. How could I write an autobiography of Forrest Mims?

Dave Jones: Oh, well, no, that's, yeah, that's why I changed it to biography.

Jeff Kaiser: So I thought maybe you would, you know, I don't know. You know, I am, I am a fan. Maybe a ghost writer or something. I am a fan of Forrest Mims, but I'm definitely not qualified to write his, uh, his biography.

Speaker ?: Right.

Jeff Kaiser: No, he actually, he wrote an autobiography called Scylla Connections. And, uh, it's quite old, actually. Uh, the, the book. Okay. It was published in, I think, 1986. And so, uh, I, I just mentioned it because I was walking through the library a couple weeks ago and there it was, you know, I saw Forrest Mims listed on the spine and I'd never heard of it before. Um, and so I, I picked it up and read through it and it's actually pretty interesting. Uh, it's very, very dated, uh, but it, it has his account of the founding of, uh, I don't know if you say MITS or MITS.

Dave Jones: Um, uh, we don't say MITS.

Jeff Kaiser: We say MITS. M-I-T-S.

Dave Jones: With, um, Ed, uh, Roberts, which we talked about the other week. Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: And so, you know, he talks about the, uh, the founding of the company and some of their early products. And it's actually kind of interesting because, you know, talk about missing the boat. Uh, Forrest Mims decided that he wanted to focus on technical writing instead of working with an electronics company. And so he actually left right as the Altair was being created. And so, you know, you can only think he's probably kicking himself if he had stock, uh, you know, hopefully he, he benefited from the, you know, the, the rise of, uh, MITS, but, uh, it's an interesting account from his perspective. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Well, I've read somewhere that he actually wrote a couple of the manuals for the MITS. He was actually contracted back.

Jeff Kaiser: He did. He did. He wrote a bunch of manuals, including a bunch for the TRS-80 also because of his, uh, Tandy, uh, RadioShack connections. So he did a bunch of writing and the book talks about that. Uh, but actually one of the things that it, it also mentions that I had never heard of before, uh, is that Forrest Mims had, uh, kind of a, a confrontation with Bell Labs. Oh, do tell. And so I guess, uh, at some point Forrest, uh, came up with the idea of using, uh, LEDs as light emitters, as well as light receivers, uh, which is kind of a novel, it's a novel thing. It's, you know, using an LED as a light sensor is not something you'd normally think of. Uh, and I guess he went to Bell Labs with the idea, uh, because I think they, they had some kind of a program where if you were an inventor, you could submit an idea to them and they would protect it somehow. And I think if they use the idea, they would give you a cut and they'd give you some kind of compensation. Uh, well, it turns out that, you know, 20 years later, uh, Bell Labs came out with a product that used this technology and gave him absolutely no credit whatsoever. Oh, really? That's right.

Dave Jones: Oh, lost in the annals of time. Did they, I wonder if they deliberately did that.

Jeff Kaiser: Well, that's his, his, his, you know, if you read his side of the story, it's that they did. Uh, and so there was a lawsuit actually, and, uh, Forrest actually won. So he went up against Bell Labs and he actually won, uh, which I think is, is, that's pretty noteworthy because Bell Labs, of course, was this enormous, enormous entity. And so the book talks about the, the struggle that he went through and, uh, you know, it goes into detail about the, the, you know, the, the details of the lawsuit, but it's an interesting read. And, uh, like I said, it's, uh, it, it feels a bit out of date now because it talks about, you know, the, uh, the influence that electronics have in our daily lives, which in 1986 was not very much, you know, it seemed like a lot at the time, but if he could have fore, foreseen the, uh, the internet and, uh, you know, what computers have done now, it's interesting, but, uh, but it's an interesting read. If anybody's interested in learning more about Forrest Mims and all of his adventures, uh, then, you know, I definitely would recommend it. I'm going to have to get that one.

Dave Jones: Definitely. That's something I'd be very interested because I love biographies and I, and it's, it's Forrest Mims for God's sake, you know, I grew up with Forrest Mims. Yeah.

Jeff Kaiser: He's kind of, he's a, he's a hero in, uh, the electronics, uh, world, you know, hobby electronics. I actually have, uh, my bookshelf, I have a whole section that's all Forrest Mims, you know, getting started in electronics and the engineer's notebooks and all that stuff. And yeah, engineer's notebooks, classic. And some of those books I've had since I was just a few years old, that was my first exposure to electronics actually was getting started in electronics. That was the first time I ever had seen, you know, how you wire an led and a transistor and, and, uh, yeah, I, I'm sure a lot of people owe their beginnings in electronics to Forrest Mims. So, you know, it's no doubt at all.

Dave Jones: So thanks Forrest for everything. It's awesome. I'm going to have to read that autobiography. I'm right. I'm definitely going to, I'm going to look for that today. I wonder if you can get it on the Kindle store. I don't know about that. That's a good question. Yeah. Hmm. No, I doubt it. I'll have to get a, uh, dusty old secondhand copy off eBay or something. I'm sure they're as rare as hen's teeth.

Jeff Kaiser: I don't know. I mean, Austin's library is not a huge library and they had a copy. Oh, okay.

Dave Jones: You actually borrowed it from the library.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah, I borrowed it from the library. That's, that's why I was just walking down the aisle and it caught my eye and, uh, you know.

Dave Jones: Fantastic. Ah, I'm sure we, I'm sure the libraries here in Australia won't have it. That's almost a given. Ah. Tell us about, you're a bit, um, uh, annoyed. I guess not annoyed, but, um, you've got to complain about Eagle, how you spend so much time.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah. You know, one of the things, uh, you, you guys are always talking about Eagle on the show and I've heard you, you, you call it free goal. Now your campaign to, uh,

Dave Jones: they started this campaign trying to free Eagle, you know, because they're restrictive in the way they, they, you know, they actually license the free version. Yeah. You know, I think it's ridiculous.

Jeff Kaiser: I actually have a bone to pick with, uh, with both of you and Chris because I paid, I paid for Eagle. You can't go and take something that I paid for and make it free. Right. That would be, that'd be, you know, that, that sucks.

Dave Jones: The big one. It really does. But, um, I'm sorry. The, uh, what did Spock say? The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few.

Jeff Kaiser: You know, in all honesty, if it were a free product, I'd love to see it become, uh, adopted at a wider level. But, uh, the thing that, that gets me is that Eagle comes with very few good, uh, footprints for parts. And, uh, I, I, it feels like I spend 80% of my time whenever I'm doing a layout creating the footprints for all the ICs. And especially if it's a new design that uses things that, you know, uh, I haven't used in a previous design. I can't just reuse the footprints. Uh, and, and I feel like the guys that are using the, the professional quote unquote, uh, CAD packages like, uh, Altium, Altium, uh, those come with IPC footprints, right? They do. And so us guys with Eagle, we have to slave away and create footprints for everything. So I, I just feel like, you know, uh, there, there must be a better way to do this. And so I, I was Googling around and looking for a solution and it looks like there is a project called the Open Symbol Project, uh, which is trying to take IPCs, uh, and, and I can't remember what IPC stands for. Is it, uh, it, uh, the, yes, I do know it. Mental block. Is it like the international packaging consortium or something? Oh God, no, I don't know. Yep. So anyway, IPC just has these guidelines that are widely used in the industry that specify, you know, how big you should make the LAN pads for a QFN, whatever, whatever. Um, and, and so there is a project to try to bring those standards into libraries for some of the common CAD projects or packages rather. Um, but I couldn't tell whether it was actually still in development. I'm not sure if that project is actually still alive or not, but it, it, think of all the time that would save, you know, not having to create footprints.

Dave Jones: Yeah, but often it may not. Maybe for the hobby level stuff, the low level, but for the high end, it is not uncommon at all. Even if, um, you have Altium or some other package which has every IPC footprint in it, and it often doesn't, by the way. Um, but even if it has an IPC generator in there to generate the footprints automatically, you're always making new footprints. It's an age old problem because a lot of companies actually won't use the IPC footprints. They will have, you know, company standards that say, no, we have to use the manufacturer's footprint and not the IPC footprint. Oh, wow. Or something like that. Or they'll have their own in-house company standards, or they will use the footprint actually, um, that's actually given to them by their board loader. Because they're the ones who, you know, because they're the ones who have optimized that footprint for their particular machine. Yeah. Or something like that. So, yeah, there's, there's this myth that the IPC footprints are the be all end all, but they're not. Um, I don't know any raw stats on it, but, um, you know, I'm sure it's like half the board designers out there, even if they have access to the IPC libraries, um, may not use them.

Jeff Kaiser: Um, so, yeah, it's one of those things. You've just totally rocked my world, Dave. I, now I don't, now I don't know what to believe.

Dave Jones: Well, no, I spend, you know, I, I have Altium, it's all the IPC footprints and I spend half my time doing bloody footprints. Why? Because all these new parts are coming out, these obscure packages that don't have a, you know, that aren't in the library and whatnot, or, you know, or it needs a thermal pad or it doesn't need a thermal pad or it needs something else or, or you want to extend them out because you want some test probe points or you want, you know, you have to optimize it for this board loader.

Jeff Kaiser: I feel like the, the footprints that the manufacturers give you, those are usually total crap.

Dave Jones: Well, often they're not the IPC. Well, I found the opposite sometimes. Um, yeah, sometimes it can be, but I've found the opposite that, well, the IPC ones are crap and the manufacturers ones are the ones that work with my particular board loader. Wow. You know, so. Interesting. Well. Yeah. It's, it's one of those toss ups. You don't know whether or not to trust IPC or trust, uh, or trust the board loaders.

Jeff Kaiser: At the most fundamental level, you just have to find out what actually works in your process and then, you know, go from there.

Dave Jones: It ultimately comes down to what works in your process. Yep. So that's why often companies, they will use whatever is actually recommended by their board loader because they have no choice. That's the one that's guaranteed to give the highest reliability. Um, or you may be working on some ultra tiny board, you know, where the IPC footprints just don't cut it. Um, because they're too big.

Jeff Kaiser: Well, they do have, you know, they do have the, they do have different sizes.

Dave Jones: They have a normal medium and, and large. Well, it's, it's actually a least most and normal amount of pad size. That's right. It's a bit confusing. That's right. Yeah. So they do have different sizes, but often those sizes don't cut it. So you have to do your own.

Jeff Kaiser: Um, that's very interesting.

Dave Jones: Yeah. It's, uh, there's, it's a, it's a, it's a whole world unto itself.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Footprint engineering. It's not just picking the IPC footprints and going for it. That's right. If you've got plenty of room, you know, if you've got, you know, plenty of room and you don't really care and you're only manufacturing a hundred or a thousand of them, then, you know, use the IPC footprints by all means. But yeah, um, no, I spend half my time doing footprints as well. So you aren't alone.

Jeff Kaiser: That makes me feel so much better.

Dave Jones: Excellent. Actually, I'm, I'm not sure if IPC actually have the formulas to generate the footprints because Altium designer actually has an IPC footprint generator. Yeah. Type in the data from the data sheet and it generates the footprint for you to IPC standards.

Jeff Kaiser: There's actually a program out there. Um, and it was called, it was by PCB matrix. Uh, they had a land pad calculator and I think, uh, mentor graphics bought them out and they killed that actually killed the, they killed the free one. And now I think you have to pay for it. And so I'm actually clutching onto my, uh, you know, 2009, 2010 vintage, uh, release that still works because, uh, if you're using Eagle, you know, that's all you've got and you don't have any other options really, unless you want to read the specs and I'm not going to do that. Uh, so I, I actually, I, and I, and I actually went and, uh, uh, for, for simple components like, uh, chip resistors and capacitors, there is actually a formula by which IPC arrives at the recommended values. Um, and it's based on the geometry of the components as well as like statistical variations in placing accuracy. And I actually reverse engineered that and came up with my own spreadsheet that I can use. Um, but that only works for chip resistors and capacitors. So as soon as I'm into, you know, uh, TQFPs and stuff, I'm back into the, back into the, the program that, uh, tells me, it gives me recommendations. And, you know, the, the, the whole reason for this is really that the footprints that come with Eagle are almost useless. You know, they're, they're almost, they're, they're very, very terrible. Uh, and typically they're really big. Uh, it's pretty obvious that they're not, you know, they're, they're, they're pretty far away from what you'd want for anything reasonable. And so that's what led me to look at the IPC stuff and then, you know, but, but you're right. I mean, I, I end up creating probably almost a hundred percent of my footprints by hand. Pretty much, you know, it's, it's all from IPC mixed with my own ideas about how things should be, you know, put together. And, and usually I do pretty well, but I just wish it didn't take so long.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I know it's tedious business, but it's, it's the job of PCB design. Really. You know, you've got to get those footprints, right. And once you've done it for your generic components, like your 0805s and your, you know, your passive components and your standard footprints, your SOT 23s and your SO, you know, eight and SO 16 and stuff like that, you're done really. But there's always some obscure. I found always every project I've worked on, there's some obscure chip I'm using that has some new footprint. That's not in my library. It's not the, or it's not the size I want. And I've, I've at least got to tweak it. Yeah. So interesting. Yeah. Oh, it's just, ah, it's crazy. Or I want some different silkscreen outline on it, you know, just, just the act of doing that, you know, because you want that silkscreen to be part of the component.

Jeff Kaiser: I agree with that. And that's something that, that, that pretty much guarantees that if I ever use someone else's footprint, I need to tear it apart and redo it anyway. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. So, so there, there is that Holy grail of PCB design. There is the, you know, you never have to design a footprint, but I don't think anyone's ever going to get there for, for, for all, but the most basic boards. So I think if you're in the game long enough, you'll realize that, yep. You know, you've got to do your own footprint sooner or later. So you've got to learn how to do it. We've got five minutes left. Yikes. Where'd the time go? Time for a, what the segment? Cause we thought we'd have a, uh, I, I won't add the naughty word on the end of it, but the WTF section. What the, um, what the frig section. Well, I've got one. It's, uh, somebody posted on the forum. I think it was the EV blog forum and ridiculous packaging. And you've got to see the photo, a photo tell us a thousand words, but I'll try and describe it. Somebody bought a, um, so somebody ordered from, um, uh, HP Hewlett Packard. They ordered a power cord, you know, just an IEC power cord. Pretty basic. You'd think they just ship it in a, you know, some sort of express satchel or something like that. No, this is in a box in a proper HP box with the paperwork. And then that box is put inside this massive box, which then is a shrink wrapped all around the outside. And then it's mounted, this huge box is mounted on a pallet. It's just ridiculous. So they shipped an entire pallet with the forklift and everything. They would have had to get the forklift in to lift up the pallet, put it on the back of the truck and they would have charged him a fortune. And this box is empty except for this one tiny little power cord. And I, wow. Is that for real? I don't, you know, it seems like a joke.

Jeff Kaiser: It almost seems like it can't be real. Yeah. But you know, I know pictures are here and you know, there's, there's like, uh, I'm looking at the post here and there's, there's several pages of, uh, of, of responses to this. And, uh, the guy, the guy never fessed up that it was, uh, it was a hoax. So I got to believe it. I have to believe this is really.

Dave Jones: I've got to believe it too.

Jeff Kaiser: Yeah.

Dave Jones: And well, cause I've had not quite this extreme, but I've had similar things. Um, element 14 slash Newark. It was actually Newark. Yeah. Uh, yeah. They were famous for it. And I slagged them off once.

Jeff Kaiser: I actually, I have to say, and I wasn't going to name suppliers, but, uh, Newark, Newark, Newark. Tell me and I'll name them. Newark Electronics. My job. I actually called, I ordered, uh, a bunch of stuff from Newark, uh, about a year and a half ago. And I actually called them and I berated their shipping department basically because each, each component was wrapped in its own padded envelope. And then each, each group of padded envelopes was like in another box that had packing material. That's what mine was. It was insane. And it was stuff that, it was stuff that it didn't even matter. It was just like, like solder.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I know. And I, I, I had like two surface mount resistors or something and they had their own padded bag inside another padded bag inside another padded bag. That's right.

Jeff Kaiser: And, and I actually, they claimed, uh, that they would reduce the amount of packaging, but really it didn't do anything. It's just.

Dave Jones: Uh, yeah, I had the same claim. So I don't know. I just boycotted them from then on. That's simply what I did. I just went, nah, screw you. I'm not ordering from you again. I told them as such.

Jeff Kaiser: And well, you know, if you want, if you want some real entertainment, uh, order lithium, uh, batteries, uh, and have them shipped by air and, uh, you will be amazed at the number of stickers and, uh, at least in the U S the number of stickers and warnings. And, you know, you will die if you incinerate this package and, you know, all of this stuff that's on these, uh, uh, that, that's been, that was the only other time that I really had one of these kind of experiences with excessive shipping. Yeah. Yeah. It's crazy.

Dave Jones: In Australia here, you cannot ship a lithium battery via post. Wow. You cannot do it.

Jeff Kaiser: At all. So, so. At all.

Dave Jones: You just can't do it. Even a little coin cell battery, which has no energy in it whatsoever. It's got naff oil, you know, it's not going to burst into flames. So this is bad news. A little watch battery.

Jeff Kaiser: If you're making a kit, like if you're a kit maker, uh, what do you do? You just tell people to find their own batteries. They have to buy their own battery.

Dave Jones: Wow. Yeah. That's, that's what you have to do if you want to obey the law. But yeah, they, they ask you all the time, you know, especially if you tick the form at, you know, it's going overseas or something, you know, and it's an electronic kit or an electronic product. If the word electronic is in there, they'll always ask you, do you have a lithium battery in there? Wow. You know, no, sir. Wink, wink. And it's just ridiculous. But I, I used to work on a project for the military. It was a underwater. Sonos is, we had these huge high energy lithium batteries in it. And yeah, I know the paperwork that goes into trying to get those things shipped and woof, boy, you know, like if these things shorted out, they would blow up, you know, they had that much energy in them. They were phenomenal. Wow. And, um, you know, it'd start a fire on a plane and bring it down or something. So yeah, they're, they're very serious business. Some of those batteries. So I can sort of understand the paranoia behind it all, but yeah, once again, it's just a blanket thing they put on. Everything's crazy. Yeah. I don't know. Well, anyway, what can you do? What can you do? The U S are famous for that, but I won't beat up the U S today. Jeff is our lovely.

Jeff Kaiser: You want to, you want to make sure that I come back at some point. Right. Absolutely. I appreciate that.

Dave Jones: Speaking of which, I think our amp hour's up and we will have to invite you back next time, Jeff. Thank you very much for, uh, joining us and standing in for Chris, who's, um, slacked out this time because he's on some junket somewhere in, uh, some city. I'm not sure where, but hey, Chris.

Jeff Kaiser: Well, yeah.

Dave Jones: I'm sure he's listening.

Jeff Kaiser: He's listening after the fact. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Well, thanks for having me. And, uh, as always, it was a lot of fun. So thanks for having me on the show.

Dave Jones: It was indeed. Thank you very much. And, uh, appreciate it. And we'll catch you next time. And I'm going to be the one doing the editing this time, I think. So if the editing sucks and it sounds different to normal, well, yeah, blame me or blame Chris for not being here. So, and doing the editing, uh, but I'll, I'll, I'll try my best anyway. So thank you very much, Jeff. And thank you everyone. See you next time. All right. Bye-bye. Bye-bye.

Dave Jones: And that's a cut.