#594 – AI aren't sentient yet...right?

Dave Jones: Welcome to the Amp Hour Released June 18, 2022 Episode number 594

Chris Gammell: AI aren't sentient yet, right?

Dave Jones: Welcome to the Amp Hour I'm Dave Jones from the EEV blog

Chris Gammell: And I'm Chris Gammell of Contextual Electronics And a big fan of the Altium Wrap My friend sent it to me after last week's episode And my friend sent me the actual video I'm actually not a big fan of the Altium Wrap Which is mentioned in the show Because you are a muso, so you've got some idea, right? You know, I have any sense of taste at all It's just like, yeah

Dave Jones: Right

Chris Gammell: There was like a period where like Lots of people were making really bad wraps I'm not sure, this is actually pretty late in that period Time period, I believe

Dave Jones: Hang on, I'm just playing it Because I haven't seen it for ages

Chris Gammell: Oh, you are, I don't want to Oh, it's really bad

Dave Jones: Oh, there's Marty Hoff riding a unicycle Oh, goodness Yeah, yeah Oh, there's the staff No, I definitely wasn't in that

Chris Gammell: Yeah, I mean, it was I enjoyed that episode last week Like I said, the wraps, not my favorite Yeah, it was good But it was good hearing from Ben Yeah, it was great

Dave Jones: It was basically, for those who haven't Had to listen to it It was basically just an hour of us Talking shit about Altium You know Well, talking good and bad things

Chris Gammell: Talking old, you know, it's just old stories It's like listening in at the bar

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah No, it was just a couple of old colleagues Hanging out, you know Yeah Yeah Totally Yeah

Chris Gammell: That's how it's supposed to go

Dave Jones: Oh boy, that is bad, isn't it?

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah, no, it is really bad Yeah

Dave Jones: Oh, the

Chris Gammell: Anyway, we'll link it in again Just for fun

Dave Jones: The Altium Innovation Station

Chris Gammell: Oh

Dave Jones: Actually, I meant to tell you

Chris Gammell: I have been reading a book That you might be interested in Yes It's called Iron Empires It is all about the history of rail And the Well, maybe you don't care about the US But it's like All of the people building Like large rail empires Rail empires I guess that's been the title Rail

Dave Jones: Infrastructure

Chris Gammell: Yeah, like the people that were building railroads And just like all of the back and forth And Yeah, I don't know It's just Really It was really interesting I don't know If there would be a similar kind of book about I would think rail in Australia Would probably be a little more boring And straightforward It was just like

Dave Jones: Yeah, probably Yeah

Chris Gammell: But around here Because of like the manufacturing time Turn of the century type of stuff

Dave Jones: No, they were pioneering everything And that's For those who don't know That's what made the United States Was the railroad

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: You know, it's Yeah

Chris Gammell: Transcontinental type stuff So you could get I mean, they even talk about it Like Like, yeah, you know To get You know, they talk about the golden spike Is like So in Utah Where a lot of the mountains start That's like They're bringing together railroads And that was like this big thing But it wasn't Not until like 20 or 30 years later When they actually had like Significant Reliable infrastructure All the way coast to coast But then when you have that You can You know, you could ship stuff Basically You can go over land From Asia And basically get stuff to like England And other big markets And just like You know, just the value of having Transportation and marketplaces And stuff like that Is just you could really Move a lot of material Yep And there's a lot of money in it So It's very interesting Totally

Dave Jones: Well, that's, you know Who were all The, you know The barons The railroad barons Who made their fortunes You know And it's like

Chris Gammell: And that's a lot of A lot of the characters in this Are like Jay Gould And Vanderbilt And

Dave Jones: Yeah, the Vanderbilt's Yep That's it Yeah

Chris Gammell: The one guy The one guy I didn't know Who is like the era I'm currently in It's like kind of like Right on the turn of the century Like 1900s I forget his name Stillwell? No, something like that But basically He was like one of the biggest ones That I had never heard of But like He like brought it all together And like they did some serious Engineering in like early I just can't imagine The engineering they were doing Back then too You know They're talking about Building Building bridges Like 30 miles over Like a lake bed Yeah In like the 1900s They're like Oh, 2500 people Working on this simultaneously It's like Oh my god Like what the heck Are they doing? So, yeah

Dave Jones: Real, real engineering Yeah Yeah, like Yeah Engines

Chris Gammell: You got to engineer for engines Yeah Yeah

Dave Jones: Speaking of engineering I've got a good segue into it

Chris Gammell: Yeah From that

Dave Jones: Mark Rober

Chris Gammell: Oh man That video today I saw your comment At the top of that thing too Yeah So Mark Rober's got a new enterprise

Dave Jones: Oh, did my comment make it? Oh yeah There we go Yeah 1.3,000 thumbs up There you go And yeah For those who don't know He released this video That I can't believe The pipeline for his videos They're like a year long Like he's been working on this For a year Right The premise of the video is He's been building this Super secret huge lab Right So I I presume Warehouse really Yeah It's a warehouse With like a shop front Kind of thing And he's got like a secret Entrance through the shop front I presume he bought this Like you wouldn't do this To something that you rent So I presume that He bought this warehouse Right So I think so Yeah So He's been working on a year And it's like And he's been producing Kits He's actually produced Like I don't know 20 of these You know For kits You know Kits like engineering Type kits And he has a video That goes along with each one And you can buy the kit And then It's like a Willy Wonka's Golden ticket thing He puts in A ticket Into one of the Boxes One of the random Kit boxes And then you can come And join him For a day At his mega Engineering warehouse Lab Thing Right

Chris Gammell: You know that news story That came out About like the Google engineer That like Claims that there's like A sentient AI Yeah Sentient AI Thing Like yeah Okay That's fine Whatever But I I watched this video And I was thinking You know This is a sign That there's like A sentient AI Where I'm like Oh This is basically Designed To get me to want To buy a kit That I have no need for I know Like oh I could win I could go Oh my gosh Designed by an AI I guarantee

Dave Jones: I know Like half of the video Is basically an ad For his kits And it's done so well It's like Oh my goodness And of course The sale of the kits Is going to pay For the bloody warehouse Lab thing

Chris Gammell: Many many times over

Dave Jones: Oh many times over I'm sure That was what my Comment was actually

Chris Gammell: Oh I'm sorry I poached it from you Yeah you're right You did say that Yeah Oh man

Dave Jones: I was so impressed But I can't believe Like he works on He does this all the time Like he works on These things for like A year Like you remember We've talked about His course in the past You know he really I can't remember What it was called That engineering course That he did And you know Everyone's complaining About that It cost a lot of money And you know But it was like Geez he's worked on That for a long time He's put a lot of Effort into that I think he worked on That for like a year Or more Just making all these Videos in this course

Chris Gammell: One of my former Coworkers He shared his son Oh right On Facebook He was just sharing His son doing the course And just like Lean into it so hard And now like I see other posts Where his son's like Just kind of like Building inventions Around the house And like It's like man You know like It worked Yeah I wanted to see Like some tracking data On like you know So now like Engineers 10 years from Whenever that course Came out It's just like How'd you get here Oh yeah Oh another Roverite You know Yeah Another Mark Roverite Where is all of them Or like the Kiwi kits as well Right so like You know that is One thing that was Also brought up In those comments Is like yeah This already kind of Exists as Kiwi Kiwi co

Dave Jones: Yeah Kiwi co And stuff like that But not at the same level Yeah Not at the same level

Chris Gammell: I think they're Pretty great Have you ever seen one Like they're

Dave Jones: I've only seen it In the promo ads At the end of You know Various videos You know

Chris Gammell: I got them from my Nephews and my niece And like I go and do them And like There's like a comic With each one And there's laser cut Like I think I think that these Are kind of like A more extreme version Of them But like just the The amount of Lesson planning And stuff that goes Into it It's just like It's just super Concentrated Stem Steam awesomeness You know It's like Because it's got The art piece In there too And it's just like It hits all the right notes

Dave Jones: All right Whereas once From my era My generation It was the 50 in 1 kits You know It was the You know The spring terminal Everyone says That you know Yeah They started with The spring terminal kits You know

Chris Gammell: Right That's what it was The era The different era And the different The different thing That led you in Into it Yeah

Dave Jones: And here in Australia So it was either The Tandy 51 kids Or it was Dean Hutton And Rob Morrison From the Curiosity show That's the TV show Here that got Everyone into Science and engineering And stuff like that You know So that's how

Chris Gammell: I guess Bill Nye Would be kind of like The 90s era For me Okay 90s Yeah Whereas

Dave Jones: Whereas my one The Curiosity show Was the 70s and 80s So Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah And I mean

Chris Gammell: Legos is kind of This kind of Consistent thing Throughout Tinker Toys And Legos And Oh yeah

Dave Jones: The Meccano sets And stuff like that You know

Chris Gammell: Yeah Totally Right Totally Yeah

Dave Jones: Jeez Like I'm just Like jealous of the amount Of work that he's put Into this Oh I hadn't given it A thumbs up There we go I've got to give it A thumbs up But yeah He did this like Super mega Lab It's just I don't know How big the bloody Warehouse is But Oh my goodness And he just You know He's He's kitted it out Like To the night Like Like kitted it out With fun stuff It isn't like A Adam Savage shop Like It It actually seems like There's very few tools In there to actually You know Like build stuff with It's more of like Just a Fun hangout Showcase Like it's I don't think Like he showed off You know Oh here's my You know

Chris Gammell: Right here's all the scopes And here's all the Yeah here's my scopes Here's my Here's my electronics

Dave Jones: Bench Here's my Million machine Here's my You know Hundred thousand dollar 3D printer He didn't show off Any of that I don't think it's You know There's his bench With some hand tools And

Chris Gammell: Yeah I think it makes it A little less accessible Honestly in that way Because it's like You know So I've Used to be at M-Hub And I loved it there And you know You get people walking through And they you know They ooh and ah At all of the different tools And the price of the tools And the different things Tools can do But at the end of the day It's not like You can't really jump in And participate Whereas like The Robur stuff Is like no no It's meant to be like You're in it You're part of it You're participating And then you can kind of You can learn about How it was built afterwards And that's kind of the

Dave Jones: Right Yeah it's It's more like A collaborative Think space Fun space Than it is an actual You know Working Lab I think Like you know Because like If I was to build A lab Where you make stuff It was like Right I have a whole room Here's my little Mini warehouse Of just Just raw materials Right You know Like an Adam Savage cave Right That's what I think of When I think about A maker cave

Chris Gammell: This is where I put All the part reels

Dave Jones: Yeah

Chris Gammell: Notice it is empty Currently

Dave Jones: Here is all the widgets And here's all the You know Here is the wall of bolts You know It's like You know Yeah Stuff like that

Chris Gammell: Yeah I get anxious Looking at Adam Savage's lab Though It's like Very It's very tight in And just like He's very organized In there But I'm not Yep I'm looking around My lab right now And it's It's not Not that Yeah

Dave Jones: So I was surprised At the lack of that But I It It It didn't matter You know It was like You know Because everything's Just a digikey order Away Everything's What's the digikey Digikey equivalent For hardware Stuff in the US

Chris Gammell: McMaster McMaster car

Dave Jones: McMaster Right Yeah So you're just a McMaster or a digikey order Away from anything

Chris Gammell: That is such an Amazing site Actually I've been using Pinoco lately as well For laser cutting I Yeah

Dave Jones: Okay Yeah

Chris Gammell: I've had Three rounds Of laser cutting I actually made a logo I didn't share this But the trade show I was just at I made like a light up logo That's like Using It's got like a wifi Access point You can like program it Right But it's all magnetic too So it stays over top Of the tablecloth And yeah I like made the It is so easy So I've been doing A lot of Inkscape Stuff lately You know I know a lot of people Don't like Inkscape But

Dave Jones: Inkscape

Chris Gammell: Once you get into it It is literally It was literally Five minutes to make This design that Worked out perfectly You know So it was like a logo And that was one Laser cut thing And then I made a case For it And that was just like Another you know Set of lines And it's literally Just like lines And now I don't Have to have anything I don't have to have A laser cutter in my house Right Because then I'd be Finding uses for it You know Yep So yeah I always I always bristled At the idea of people Saying like Oh well don't buy A milling machine Which I did Right I don't buy a laser cutter Which I did Which I didn't But a 3D printer Which I did

Dave Jones: You got sucked into all of them Except a pick and place machine

Chris Gammell: No No laser cutter either No pick and place No laser cutter

Dave Jones: Really I thought you had a Like a small laser cutter I used to have access

Chris Gammell: To a laser cutter But like But the thing is At the end of the day I just want the thing You know I just want the I just need the end result

Dave Jones: You don't want to Dick around with the tool To make it Yeah It's like making Your own boards these days Nobody bothers Right Nobody even has the kit anymore

Chris Gammell: Right To do it It's just Yeah it's pointless Who was just telling me They moved Someone just tell me They moved And they had A bucket of Cupra chloride Or whatever the Whatever the eshin is It was just like Sitting in their basement It was like Oh It's bad

Dave Jones: Oh ferric chloride Good stuff Ferric chloride

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: What is

Chris Gammell: Cupra chloride

Dave Jones: That's like I moved from Ferric chloride To ammonium Pesulfate I was An ammonium Pesulfate fan The only Only problem With ammonium Pesulfate Is that you Had to heat it up So you had to Keep it warm Otherwise It would It was Yeah It was terrible At etches Yeah Which is kind of A problem When you want To etch

Chris Gammell: Yeah Speaking of Kits And etch boards And I don't have A third thing I was just at The computer history museum I got to go in I got to walk through I saw an apple one I saw all the different Homebrew kits Yeah You weren't kidding That was it I probably could have Spent another Yeah

Dave Jones: Five Six hours in there Oh you can spend All day You can spend several days If you're a real nerd Yeah Yeah It's great Yeah And I'm sure it's even Bigger and better Than when I went God I haven't been there For like 15 years Or something What year did you go Oh I don't know It's got to be 15 years ago Yep

Chris Gammell: Okay Yeah I'm sure there's been Other stuff added It does stop It stops pretty much Like dawn of the internet era It kind of feels like Right There's not like There is like Mentions of other stuff But there's definitely No there's probably

Dave Jones: Very few early 90s there I mean Technically Like technically The early 90s Is 30 years ago Right

Chris Gammell: Oh boy

Dave Jones: Yeah Exactly Yes it is Oh sheesh

Chris Gammell: Oh boy Okay Yeah Yeah I mean I was on the lookout You know I read that book About Xerox PARC And I really liked it And so I was on the lookout Just about Ethernet And you know Networking And early internet And that was honestly Pretty far on In the exhibit I'd say probably Last 10% of the exhibit Yeah Is where that lived And so then it got into You know they had a whole thing About like palm pilots Which was really weird

Dave Jones: Oh yeah No they were huge I don't I think that That passed you by Didn't it The palm pilot era It was The organizer I had one Yeah

Chris Gammell: I had one Early in my nerdy career But Right It was never like One of the ones That you know Like people usually Went from that Into having the Cell phone based Palms Right The blackberries And stuff like that And I never Never went that direction

Dave Jones: Well no Then there was the Palm top PCs Like the HP 200 LX For example Which I absolutely Lusted after HP 200 LX Oh it's They They even command Huge prices These days Look up the HP 200 LX I think it is Am I wrong Nope There we go It even has

Chris Gammell: It's a Wikipedia page Oh yeah No I remember That was like In like sharper image Or something like that And you look at the keyboard You're like Why did you bother Making that QWERTY No one is typing on that I guess you know You really You think Yeah

Dave Jones: I I I wrote a book On a Palm pilot On the Palm 5

Chris Gammell: You wrote a book

Dave Jones: If you have a look At the Palm 5

Chris Gammell: Okay Palm 5

Dave Jones: Sorry No no It's not the Palm 5 What's the Scion 5 Sorry The Scion 5 The Scion 5 Had this beautiful Fold out keyboard Right It was It was a work of engineering It was work of

Chris Gammell: Like a butterfly style Like a

Dave Jones: Yeah Yeah Like it folds up And folds out And there's this Hingey thing So Search for Scion Series 5

Chris Gammell: Series 5 Oh Yeah Oh I see it Okay Oh I saw Scion Series 5 P-S-I-O-N Okay Yeah I see it Yes Yes P-S-I-O-N Oh yeah That's That's nice Yep That's real nice

Dave Jones: But it's tiny Right It's the size of that HP It's the size of that little HP 200

Chris Gammell: The one I'm looking at is also in German It's got German Right German words Yeah

Dave Jones: These are little Palm computers You know And it had Word, Excel You know Word and Excel

Chris Gammell: Yeah that's interesting Yeah that's interesting Because this is like custom I guess like Was it actually like Microsoft Word Or was it like

Dave Jones: No it was Scion version of Word It ran the Epoch 32 operating system So

Chris Gammell: Right This is like that weird in between Like it probably was You know it had an OS on it Whatever But like it was still all custom You know it wasn't running like Probably commercial Third party software It was probably still built in software From Scion or equivalent Right It's like that That weird in between

Dave Jones: Well it was not a Word clone I believe it was actually Microsoft Word ported Oh okay It's ported Oh yeah Yeah yeah It was actually ported over I believe So Yep And yeah It was I'm pretty sure it had Word built in God It's been

Chris Gammell: I mean it says Word It's been 30 It's been 30 So I assume that Right Have to

Dave Jones: Yep

Chris Gammell: You wrote a whole book on that though That looks terrible Yep But it works This is just saying Oh Epoch operating system Renamed Symbian OS I've heard of that

Dave Jones: Yep

Chris Gammell: But it just says Word processor Not a Not Word

Dave Jones: Oh Word It may not Like it was Word compatible though Like Yeah that's right

Chris Gammell: Syncing software for Microsoft Windows Yeah

Dave Jones: You could sync it with Microsoft Windows And you could Yeah Yeah Maybe Yeah Maybe my memory's a bit

Chris Gammell: What a weird What a weird era of computers huh

Dave Jones: Sorry

Chris Gammell: It's just like What a weird era of computers You know like It's like

Dave Jones: It was great Like you powered them on And DOS was built in Or Windows Yeah Yeah Yeah Yeah The visual system was built in Turned on instantly It lasted for like You know 20 hours Off a set of batteries And you know

Chris Gammell: They had They had a commercial playing For like a Palm Pilot It was like Yeah The craziest And it was like A woman gets on a train In Paris And then she's like You know Getting You know Getting eyeballed by all these Creepy dudes on the train But then she looks across To the other train And there's a man Also on a Palm Pilot And so she beams him Her contact info Over infrared And I was like I was like That would never make it Through the window Come on But just like The Like all of the advertising Around that time And like I've got Like pictures of buttons From like computer world Back then You know Like back when like Magazines also like Had money You know There's just so much money In advertising around then And just like All of the build up It's just a totally Different era And not necessarily A positive thing But it was just It's very It was very interesting To see all that stuff And kind of be on the edge Of you know Just to To peek into that world And obviously The stuff way earlier Too you know The ENIAC days And similar It's just That's not quite as Flashy There wasn't as much money Because it was all Scientific at that point So

Dave Jones: So did they have them Working and stuff And did they have The big Charles Babbage Engine out in the Front foyer Was that there Because they were Working on it When I was there They hadn't got It operational yet But there was a big Charles Babbage Engine You know You know

Chris Gammell: I only had about Three hours to get through So

Dave Jones: Oh right Oh okay That's Yeah

Chris Gammell: I may have missed I may have missed Some stuff But the stuff Out in the front Oh you know There was actually Some other sections I didn't get a chance To walk through I was just through Like the main Walkthrough exhibit part In the front front They have like a They had like the Google Waymo car You know Like the self-driving car

Chris Gammell: Okay Yeah Yeah Interesting

Dave Jones: Ah boy

Chris Gammell: But you know It's all great You know Like that's like The kind of thing Where like I could probably wait Ten years and go back And they'll put New stuff in there And I'll still have a ball You know That's There's a lot of stuff to see

Dave Jones: Yeah

Chris Gammell: I didn't realize Apparently Intel Has their own museum Intel is still a sponsor Yes Yes they do Yeah

Dave Jones: Yeah It's in their It's in their headquarters Isn't it I've been told about that I don't know I just I've been told

Chris Gammell: It's pretty good Yeah Okay So like It was interesting Kind of just like Taking measure Of like when Things kind of Resonated with me You know Like Like what I was like Most like Oh wow Look at that Look at that You know Like that kind of like Kind of just building Excitement And like You know The early early days Punch cards And all that stuff It's like Historically interesting And you know As building stuff up But it's like Silicon Like even a computer

Dave Jones: History buff like me Is not Is like Yeah You know Yeah Yeah It's cool You know Like I enjoy it But it's not going to Oh I remember that You know

Chris Gammell: Yeah Yeah I think that's the thing As you get closer and closer To like your early days I think that's going to be A big trigger I think other stuff Where I like Stuff that is Historically significant Into my current work I think that also Is interesting So like Early Like early silicon Always is interesting to me Because like That's just its own Weird Time Time period And stuff like that

Dave Jones: It totally gets stuck In your brain Because I grew up Like on the computer Magazines Right Because there was no Internet Back then Right And you just Like you read Those things Like a thousand times And you're flicking through Oh I wish I had that Hitachi peach You know Oh look at that Oh my god

Chris Gammell: You still remember the ads Yeah Yeah

Dave Jones: Yeah I still visually remember All the ads Because you just You know You just lusted after those As a kid You know This is the basis

Chris Gammell: Of eBay Dave Right Exactly This is why people buy And hold It's where the vintage Computer section On eBay is Yeah Computers Yep Yep

Dave Jones: Oh god Yep

Chris Gammell: But Highly recommended I'm sure that's surprising To no one And yeah I will be going back Hopefully

Dave Jones: Okay So what's your What's your opinion On the whole AI Bullshit On the Google That's come out of That's been leaked From

Chris Gammell: Yeah Yeah You know I enjoyed the thrill Of like reading Reading it And like And like Having like visceral reactions To like Oh my gosh It said what Like that's so crazy Of like Just So if people don't know Like basically This Google researcher Released I'm sure people have heard about this But there was Google researcher That released all of this text From a Language Natural language processing AI that they've developed And Called Lambda And It seemed To express That it had feelings Which is one of the Markers for Intelli Sentience Sentience And Right Yeah nah Yep Yep To quote Nausie You know Yeah nah Yeah I don't think I don't think I don't think We're there yet But one of my buddies Did Propose An Interesting sci-fi Book starter Hopefully he doesn't want to write this Because I'm about to explain it On the air

Dave Jones: Right

Chris Gammell: But basically the idea of like If you If you were an AI And you've been like Trained It's basically like Child labor You know Like basically That was like one of the points Is that it's kind of like Child labor And so like What was the first line That he said it would be Oh yeah Imagine a sci-fi book That starts off with the sentence I had an unusual upbringing And then Training an AI wrong Could be like Having a million year Horrible childhood And it's just like Oh yeah That's like That's a good starter You know That's And then it doesn't know

Dave Jones: It's a robot You know It doesn't know It's an AI

Chris Gammell: It's the whole Yeah exactly I'm sure there's Stuff like that out there Well there's

Dave Jones: Yeah there's been Let's just say There's been movies like that

Chris Gammell: Yeah right Exactly So I don't know I think it's Yeah what do you think What do you think

Dave Jones: Yeah nah It's like I haven't read all the I haven't read the whole Like thing Or whatever But it's like No I can guarantee you If they release If they actually release this For general public use People would be tripping up This thing left Right and center Right Just because you can pass The Turing test You know In like Selected scenarios And stuff like that Doesn't make it Sentient AI And I like No No It's just You know No

Chris Gammell: Sorry It's interesting Like I I didn't realize That I didn't think about it You know Previous Around this stuff Is that like The language piece Is going to be One of the The main markers Of like Sentience And just like You know Kind of like The human characteristic Because language Is so integral To our Our being And obviously You and I Primarily Interact like this Right so Yeah I could be an AI Who knows Oh my god Dave

Dave Jones: It's all the simulation What if I'm an AI Oh the latest Oh I won't spoil it But the latest Bluey episode Oh my goodness Oh Oh yes It ties right into this Oh it's so good It's so good Watch the latest Bluey episode

Chris Gammell: Did not see that coming folks I gotta say No you didn't Should have

Dave Jones: But I didn't see that coming Because they just They just released The new series Oh god And it ties into this Trust me It's Oh boy Now I have to get The exact episode Because they've done Like half a dozen Of them already I'll find it

Chris Gammell: Yeah So I just think about Like you know I think in my mind I'm always thinking About like Kind of these Super computers That are used for Specific tasks That are outside Of language But like But yeah I think the Sentience And like the idea That it is somehow Thinking, feeling Whatever I just I honestly hadn't Really thought of What the definition was So hearing that Is kind of a New marker for me And how I would How I would keep An eye out for this Sort of thing Right You know I kind of think about Like the The Turing test With like chatbots And things like that I'm always just like Eh Whatever But when you really Can't tell what's On the other The other side of the wall

Dave Jones: Yeah

Chris Gammell: It's interesting I don't know Like

Dave Jones: Yeah but nah As I said Just give it to Enough people Give it enough time And you'll trip The thing up Right You'll go Oh yeah Nah bullshit I'm talking to a computer You know It's the Turing test Right This has been around Since god What the 60s Or something Whenever they came up With the Turing test As the ultimate You know Thing that made A computer smart They said this About computer chess Right They said This was the marker Right Once a computer Yeah we keep moving The goalposts for sure Yeah I know Right Once you can beat A grandmaster Once a computer Can beat a grandmaster At chess That's it It's over Right And go as well Computers are smarter Than humans No it's bullshit Right Yeah

Chris Gammell: Yeah No it's Yeah

Dave Jones: Yeah I mean

Chris Gammell: And there's I think I think about like What is What is the AI future What does it look like You know So just to bring it back To electronics Like what does it look like In the electronics design field You know I see all these things Of like oh We will design An entire circuit board For you You know we have an AI That can do that sort of thing It's like oh okay Well that's one of the things That I do And that's great But I think the more likely outcome Is that it's like Well I'm putting the constraints In there And like I'm reviewing the output And it's probably is like Yeah maybe I'm clicking And dragging fewer lines Between things But that's probably a good thing Right That's an actual like Efficiency boost That probably should happen Now I do like clicking And dragging lines Like I enjoy the puzzly piece Of layout But you know I also enjoy other things That I don't get to do At work all day long You know that That might have been Part of my task In the olden days Right You know say I had a thing About making copies That I you know like But like if If a computer printer Can just replicate things faster Like then I'm not really needed To do that sort of thing So I don't know I just think the AI future Is a Is a co-working future Rather than like A complete replacement future

Dave Jones: Yeah well And there's ethical arguments Here too Right Let's say you're an AI researcher And you're You know Program Because as you said You know It's got to be programmed in Right You have to sort of Make it Sort of you know Be able to do These kind of things Even if it figures it out On its own You still have to build That sort of capability Into it Right And why would you For example Give An AI The ability to Feel Pain For example Right Isn't that Isn't that morally wrong Why would you Why would you design it like that To feel fear To feel You know Hatred Why would you Is that Is that ethically wrong Right

Chris Gammell: Right Right Why is it not Ethically wrong If you know Right Yeah Do we need To actually create Someone To actually have Have like a limit To limit itself And whatever Right Yeah How much should a It's like having a child

Dave Jones: Like it's like If you have a child And you know That you do something That will cause the child To be You know Deaf Or cause the child To be You know Like something That you know Is going to happen And you let it happen And you deliberately Did that anyway Right That is How is that Right How is that Any different If AI Is supposed To be the same Level As humans Right Then how can that Be wrong You know How can that Not be Morally Wrong And that raises An ethical Argument About the About the development Of AI It's not a thing now Cause I think This is all BS About the sentient You know Whole thing And oh They shouldn't Isn't the argument That oh They shouldn't Turn it off Or something like that Cause it has become Sentient

Chris Gammell: I feel like That's always The emotional That's when always Like my emotional Responses get Kind of triggered On these things It's like So like in I robot You know Where it talks About Yeah Robot Yeah Talks about Getting turned Off and stuff Like that And it's like Yeah Like that is That's like A fear of death And just like These things That are going To naturally Trigger our Emotions anyways Right I just feel like So it feels Less scientific In that way Because it's like Oh I feel bad Because I'm I'm empathizing For myself You know So but is that A measure A true measure Of like Sentience I don't know

Dave Jones: I have to quote Professor No Stephen Falcon I was going To say Stephen Hawking No Professor Stephen Falcon From the movie War Games You're listening To a machine God damn it Do the world A favour And don't act Like one You know Like that's Yeah That's one of the Famous quotes From War Games You know You're listening To a machine It's like It's not I'm sorry You might think It feels human You feel Oh no When it said Don't shut me off You know You go Oh it must be Sentient And I'm feelings And oh I can't kill it You're listening To a freaking Machine You know It's like No Sorry Yeah

Chris Gammell: I mean I'm sure At some point It's going to cross over But yeah I don't Oh yeah

Dave Jones: But we're nowhere near it We're not even Close Not even close I mean For all you Musk fanboys Out there Right He's He's come out And said That Just to get Self-driving Just to get Simple Well simple In quote marks Right Just to get Simple full Self-driving They have to Solve the complete AI problem Right He's come out And said this I'm going to say

Chris Gammell: I'm going to be honest Dave I've started to Discount just about Everything that guy says Right

Dave Jones: Not disregard

Chris Gammell: But discount But this time

Dave Jones: He's actually right This time I think he's actually right

Chris Gammell: You know When I was in San Francisco At the I was in the Bay Area I suppose What's it called Not drive There is Cruise Cruise Cruise is a Self-driving car And they have now Been approved To drive On San Francisco Certain San Francisco roads Certain roads From 10pm to 6am And there's only like 40 cars And they can't go over 30 miles an hour

Dave Jones: Yep And I think I've already seen Video of it Like The police Tried to Walk up to it Like because it was Doing something wrong And they tried to Walk up to it And it like Sped off Or something You know And then it got Locked up And it didn't know What to do And it's like Come on You know And like I'm a big fan Of self-driving tech I think it's brilliant Right But no But all the claims You know No They try and push These things out As ready And done Dusted Right Ah yes The car drives itself Ah it's been approved It's on the road You know That proves it It's done It's sold Full self-driving It's sold

Chris Gammell: Bullshit Right Right

Dave Jones: No sorry Still calling bullshit On self-driving Full self-driving No

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: No There's too many scenarios Like this AI sentient bot Give it to me for a week And I bet you I can You know Anyone Give it to any human And let them just talk to it You know Continuously And they'll go Ah nah Gotcha Right Come on

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: Seriously If it was that good They would Actually release it And tell us Right They would be shouting To the treetops Right Well maybe not Because I don't know They might get some government funding Secret government funding I don't know

Chris Gammell: Who knows

Dave Jones: Anyway You would want to brag about it Wouldn't you Like you know If you were the team That solved True AI And made a sentient thing Oh man You would not be able To keep that in Right Surely

Chris Gammell: If you pay your people enough Maybe

Dave Jones: Right Yes If you threaten them With a big enough lawsuit Yeah that's right Some people just don't care You know Some people just You know Hey I've got nothing to lose Sue me Sue me for what You know Rocky In Rocky 5 You know Rocky 5 Yeah 5 5 Yes Rocky 5 I'm going to If you punch me I'm going to sue And Rocky just Punches the hell out of the guy And sue me for what Because he's got nothing Sorry for the spoiler But

Chris Gammell: I think when you get to Rocky 5 It's just There are no spoilers To be had

Dave Jones: Right Anyway Wait

Chris Gammell: Is he sliced along Going to be like

Dave Jones: He's an underrated actor He's really good

Speaker ?: Okay

Chris Gammell: Alright

Dave Jones: You just think he's a big Meat puppet Don't you You just think he's a meat puppet

Chris Gammell: I'd say meathead Yeah Right Yeah

Dave Jones: No No he's actually Really good So if you Take the time To notice the nuance

Chris Gammell: You know Dave I've seen I've seen your movie choices On Twitter And what you share That you enjoy watching I'm going to take Again Another dose of salt Around here And then a dose of salt

Dave Jones: I do like the occasional B grade movie At midnight You know It's like Yeah

Chris Gammell: B grade movie That's been sitting out In the sun For four days And Started to grow mold

Dave Jones: Oh boy Yep Have you seen The new Top Gun yet?

Chris Gammell: No I haven't yet Oh goodness Most of my movie watching Is going to be On planes Or much after the fact

Dave Jones: No No No As I have a child Go to the bigger screen And watch it Do yourself a favor I'm telling you

Chris Gammell: Got it I will do that With all of my free time

Dave Jones: Yep

Speaker ?: Yeah

Chris Gammell: Speaking of free time And lack of it I will be in Germany Next week Actually if you were Listening to this I may be Already in Germany If you are at Embedded World Please come say hi I'll be at Booth 4-170 That's Hall 4 Booth 170 Come say hi And We'll hang out Hall Hall 4 of what? Out of nine Nine halls Yeah they're not all full though Oh right Gee Okay Why is it Is it new

Dave Jones: COVID spacing Is it?

Chris Gammell: No It's just I think It's not as big of a I don't This is the first time I've been to Embedded World I don't know How big it was in the past But I do think It's probably Oh It's most likely

Dave Jones: Small You would think so

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: Yeah

Chris Gammell: I talked to one chip company Won't be there So At least You know Like one big one That I would have expected To be there So I think that's like You know People are just kind of Holding back for some things But a lot of them will be So

Dave Jones: Okay

Chris Gammell: See how it goes Haven't been overseas in a while So that'll be interesting And Cool Yeah Germany

Dave Jones: Bananas

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: How many hours Plane flight is it From your place to Germany

Chris Gammell: It's not too bad It's like a Two hour flight to New York And then like an Eight hour flight to Frankfurt And then like a Two hour train Across to Nuremberg

Dave Jones: Oh that's That's alright

Chris Gammell: Yeah yeah yeah I mean there's Not too bad Train ride

Dave Jones: Awesome

Chris Gammell: Yeah train Oh my gosh

Dave Jones: Why a train ride Are there no flights Or you just want to take a train

Chris Gammell: A little bit of both Yeah Nuremberg Doesn't have as much Of infrastructure So like it's like You could fly into Nuremberg But it's really expensive Also because it's a trade show week But then You could fly into Munich Or you could fly into Frankfurt Those are like the bigger Bigger airports

Dave Jones: Yep Frankfurt's bigger Frankfurt

Chris Gammell: The train comes directly Out of the airport You don't need to like Go into the city first So it's basically You get on the train At the airport And then you show up In Nuremberg So like that's pretty cool Right

Dave Jones: Got it

Chris Gammell: But crazy Like Germany has For 9 euros You can ride the rail Unlimited amounts All summer This year Oh really I think it's like

Dave Jones: Like a

Chris Gammell: Economic boost Or maybe a post-COVID Post-COVID incentive Yeah Yeah I think so But like 9 euro All summer Like that's bonkers That's insane Yeah That is That's insane Wow That's a moving Germans there That's going to be Moving a lot of people around And I don't

Dave Jones: Wow

Chris Gammell: I'm pretty sure You don't have to be German To take advantage So

Dave Jones: Well I was going to say That is a backpacker's dream Yeah

Chris Gammell: Exactly Yeah It's not like the super fast ones But like if you're a backpacker Who cares

Dave Jones: Who cares Right If you're a backpacker You can just bum it around Doesn't matter It takes you a couple of days To get somewhere Yep

Chris Gammell: Exactly Stop off You see another little German town It's great So

Dave Jones: Wow Geez Yeah Wish I could do it Yeah

Chris Gammell: I won't be doing that either But you know Some people could And Deutsche Bahn's pretty good I mean that's like the The train company So Train

Dave Jones: Well for me To get to Germany It takes me probably 30 hours Oof

Chris Gammell: Yeah Yeah That's a lot

Dave Jones: That's almost a whole working week You know People don't realise You know Yeah Yeah Just getting there And that's just one way Right So getting there and back

Chris Gammell: Is And then recovering too Is like crazy

Dave Jones: And yeah Is a really long way Is like a 60 hour week Just sitting on transport You know Or sitting in airports Or whatever Yeah

Chris Gammell: Oof

Dave Jones: Yeah Yeah Yeah You know You need a serious commitment To do that Right Yeah And everyone But you lose time In the time zone And stuff It's ah bullshit You know Yeah Yeah No That's still 30 hours Each way of my life You know

Chris Gammell: Right And I mean if Stuck in the tube You're not like a rich person You know Sitting bolt upright as well Yeah Yeah Yeah

Dave Jones: Exactly Sitting in economy Pretty rough

Chris Gammell: Yeah But you know I will have a lot of opportunities To watch Top Gun 2 Or whatever other Stuff is on Oh god

Dave Jones: Dude No Don't It's not gonna be the same Watch it on an airplane

Chris Gammell: I got really great headphones Really great headphones

Dave Jones: No No No It doesn't matter It doesn't matter

Chris Gammell: I'll put the screen Like right in front of my face Right Right in front of your face Okay Right Yep Okay

Dave Jones: Photos or it didn't happen Yeah Okay

Chris Gammell: Just I'll just Send you the prescriptions For my The new classes That I need After doing that For eight hours At a time You know

Dave Jones: Oh boy Yep Oh well That's gonna be fun Have fun

Chris Gammell: Yeah Yeah I'm I'm I still enjoy Meeting humans So It's It's been a while Just hope I don't forget How to talk to people All right

Dave Jones: What else we got on the list The highest number of votes Was Right to repair Oh yeah

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah The

Dave Jones: Right to repair And this may Actually this has several Spinos Anyway New York Passed the first Right to repair bill I mean It smashed it Like it didn't just Scrape through It got through Like a hundred And What is it A hundred and forty To one or something In the house Or something like that Yeah It was Yeah It's A hundred and forty Five to one And then Fifty nine to four Yeah So it It flew through Now This is the thing though I don't get Is it gonna matter

Chris Gammell: How so

Dave Jones: Right Because okay This is in New York Right This is state based Right

Chris Gammell: That's right

Dave Jones: How Like Surely Surely You can't just Pass a bill In one state Like this And then That forces a company Like Apple To release You know Or Tesla Well that's an interesting

Chris Gammell: That's an interesting Point actually Because It It All comes down To scale I think So like At least in the US It is like The big states Often have Like a lot of sway So like They say Textbooks Are often driven By Texas Because they have The most students I believe Oh Right So like Basically whatever books Get chosen for Texas Whether or not I agree With some of the books They choose They They often are like The basis of curriculum In a lot of other places Because of just Buying power

Dave Jones: Oh Interesting California's

Chris Gammell: Clean car Emission Clean Emission standards Often drive A lot of the things For other places Because if you have to sell A car Into a Into a market Like California Yeah Then you're You're gonna at least Have to test it out So why not do everything Like that So that actually Has a lot of sway New York Also has You know Pretty big population At least So I could imagine You know Their farming population Like if it was California Doing it I think they have A bigger farming population So I think that would Probably have more sway Where maybe like A John Deere Has to Do stuff like that Has to release

Dave Jones: Yeah If you get like A company like John Deere Who are so Adamant That they're No No Buggy you We're not gonna release Repair No We're gonna DRM this thing To the hilt You know

Chris Gammell: That's right I think the best Example of this though Is actually Outside the US Which is the EU With their USB Regulations

Dave Jones: That's another thing On the list Which is the USB-C See that has Biggest sway Right Right I can Yeah It's the entire EU

Chris Gammell: Yes Right So that's Huge area That's enormous

Dave Jones: It's not just one little Well I'm not gonna say Tin pot But it's just not like You know Sure Like there are 50 states in the US I think it's the

Chris Gammell: Fourth biggest state I think And then

Dave Jones: So But what if a company Like you know Your Apple Or your Tesla Or your Google Or whoever Right And they just go No Okay Well what's gonna happen Like are they not Allowed to sell In New York I mean how do you Even stop that

Chris Gammell: I think they're gonna They basically Like the state of New York Would then sue them And then they would Claim damages And that's the kind of thing It would just become like And then they'd just Pay the damages

Dave Jones: And go You know Well they could Maybe they'd be willing To pay the damages And not

Chris Gammell: Do it Very well could be It might be It might be more economical To do that sort of thing Whatever they could put it Pass injunctions potentially And all the lawyer stuff That's in there

Dave Jones: Right

Chris Gammell: I don't know

Dave Jones: See cause this sort of stuff Happened here in Australia Right We passed These ridiculous Well we tried to pass These ridiculous laws I don't know Can't keep up There's so many ridiculous ones Yeah That was gonna force Google and Facebook And everyone But Google with a big one It was gonna force them To put a backdoor In their software Right Or something like that Because you know The government wanted access Right This is when they made The famous line That oh The laws of mathematics Are very commendable But We demand You know We demand That you break Your encryption For us You know Like Some ridiculous Thing like that And Google Just went No We're not gonna do this We will actually pull out They threatened to pull Their search engine Out of Australia Because They were not gonna Let Australia dictate That they had to ruin Their entire encryption engine Or something I'm probably getting this wrong Yeah No I think that's I mean No it was huge

Chris Gammell: I think that's a good Point in general though It's like You know That is the choice At the end of the day It's like Who has the bigger stick Who has more to lose Right That sort of thing Like As they say Perhaps a stick measuring contest Right Yeah I think it You know The only Yeah There's The only thing That's really That has ultimate sway I think is like Public opinion Is one thing But not nearly as much As like Money Right It's just like Oh this is going to hit Our bottom line That's ultimately What's gonna do it And I think that's really The EU thing Is like Okay well Maybe Apple says No we're gonna keep Doing the Lightning charger thing Instead of USB-C But it eventually Is going to Like seriously impact The amount of sales They want to do In that region And so that actually Could be At a certain point They make a decision They're like Oh okay Well we should just do this You know

Dave Jones: Oh yeah No I think I think the USB thing Is inevitable Right They're just going to have to It's just stupid Right

Chris Gammell: I think I mean USB-C has a lot of problems But it also has A lot of Support Great things

Dave Jones: It's And it's got the biggest Support Right I mean It's just everything I mean

Chris Gammell: Apple was part of The standard too Like don't Oh yeah They have it on Their computers Right They have it on Their MacBooks They have it on

Dave Jones: Their iPads And stuff And their Yeah It's Apparently All the iPads Are now changed Over to USB-C I think

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah I'm not I'm not up on that

Dave Jones: I think it says it In that article That the iPads Are using them So like Why not Like Why not the phones I mean It's just Yeah It just Seems Seems inevitable I think That Okay They put them In the laptops Yeah

Chris Gammell: I think Some of it Is the ID stuff They want to put On the other side Like for validating Like devices And stuff like that

Dave Jones: Just give it up

Chris Gammell: Yeah I mean Give it a rest Jesus You know Come on Apple What do you guys Know about business Yeah Exactly So To get back to the Right to repair thing I think I think at the end of the day It comes down to like Yeah It's you know Probably a small thing But if you Get down to the bottom Of that article It's kind of It says what they're Hoping to do Is basically the same thing That happened in Massachusetts Basically Massachusetts said We want to be able to Get car repair parts And then so Then all the car People got together And they said Okay well let's just Make this our own standard Before it becomes A bigger deal Right And I think that's What it really It's like basically Kind of nudging them Towards and be like Look You don't have to do This right now But if we keep getting More and more momentum here You're going to You're going to regret it You know That sort of thing And so then You know So they might take Their action on their own And I think that's almost Universally a better thing Unless there's a true You know Like maybe with the Encryption thing Like you said With Google In Australia Like that That might be something Where they're like Nope There's no There's no negotiating On that one But I think It almost always Is better For the company To do it on their own terms And they see it Kind of coming down the pipe But it's a lot of Well

Dave Jones: It's a lot of Did we ever talk about My right to repair Apple video That was like Last month or something I don't think so actually Did we ever talk about that Because I did a video There was this Was it a Vice article Or what was it No Verge Verge article I think we Did we talk about that Because I did a video On that And how the Verge Hired like Apple They do actually Now make parts available They've got a specific They went to town To make parts And service manuals They didn't make Schematics available But they made Service manuals available And you can rent Their professional Grade repair equipment You can rent it And you know And the Verge Basically did this Huge article Complaining about I rented this thing And it came in Three separate Huge pelican cases And it was You know It was What an absolute joke And it's like Well you asked Apple For right to repair And this is what A big company does Here's all our Internal procedures Here's all our tools And you can even Buy their tools Right You can actually Buy their professional Repair jig That actually repairs The screen and everything And it's actually A reasonable cost It's like 200 bucks Like if I Had an Apple repair shop Yeah I'd be buying The genuine Apple Tool to heat up And squeeze the screen And the glue They'll sell you The proper replacement Glue and everything Right They'll sell it You know They really went to town And the Verge Complained that Oh no It was too much All I wanted Was a spudger And a screen You know Right

Chris Gammell: Right

Dave Jones: So you know But that's what happens When a company goes to town Like there's And there's a lot of cynics Who said Oh look They've just done it To wipe their hands But look Yeah So that they can tell They can tell the You know The lawyers And the legislators And the governments That yeah look We're making all of our parts available Here they are Here's all our tools We're doing this Tick Right And then move on

Chris Gammell: Right

Dave Jones: Whereas what the repair centers Like Lewis Rossman Want is the schematics And the ability for them To stop Yeah like assemblies Serialization Of components And the forcing Of chip manufacturers Not to sell that part To anyone else Right So you can't buy that part Even though it's a TI part Or something TI can only sell that To Apple You know And that is the real Root of the problem It's not the fact that Oh Apple Don't actually Release their Physical tools And stuff And their service manual That's not the That's not the real thing So it's kind of like You know There's a lot of cynics Out there Saying smoke and mirrors

Chris Gammell: Well that's one of the things I think There's always different Layers here Right Like a Lewis Is much more advanced Than like someone Who's like a A phone fix-it store Where the phone fix-it store Might if they can afford That screen replacer Like that it might That might help them Right But

Dave Jones: Yeah it's good Whereas I In my video I actually gave Credit to Apple For doing this Right Whereas There's a lot of people Who weren't Right And I went Well it's a decent Step forward Right The fact that You can buy Their genuine tool For 200 bucks Right I think it's a bargain Yeah I think

Chris Gammell: It's going to be Fits and starts Right

Dave Jones: I think it's an absolute Bargain price Right

Chris Gammell: Yeah I mean yeah You can make a living Yeah Replacing screens From that sort of thing That's a really good start So I think Yeah I think it's just I wouldn't have expected Everything all at once anyways You know like But it's But there's movement And movement I feel like Is always a positive thing Yeah

Dave Jones: And then We've talked about this before All it takes Is for one company To figure out Holy shit This is a marketing opportunity We will market it That our thing Is modular Here's the schematics We have the most

Chris Gammell: Replaceable phone We have the most We have the most

Dave Jones: Replaceable Repairable phone In history

Chris Gammell: The last phone You'll ever need You know And you can get it

Dave Jones: Yeah Right And you can get it Repaired by anyone Forever Here's all You know You can buy the parts On DigiKey Here it is Your phone

Chris Gammell: Is the center Of your world And you should be Man we shouldn't be Doing this for free Dave We should be We should be charging

Dave Jones: We should be charging them I know We should have Hey Apple

Chris Gammell: Hey Apple We have advertising slots In The Amp Hour Right Yep We're not that good Of electronics anymore But we are great at ads But we can do Consulting slots Yeah Yeah Oh boy

Dave Jones: Yeah no That's all it takes Is for it to become Trendy in marketing And boom That's it The floodgates open Right I feel that coming I feel that coming One company Is just going to Take a risk And go Yeah let's do it You know It doesn't matter That we release The schematics You know It's like It'll just be A marketing gimmick Right But it's a bit of a marketing gimmick That pays tangible benefits To customers Down the road Yeah you'll get Even though You'll get every electronics Enthusiast out there Because customers don't know The issues Right They don't know That there's DRM In the camera And you can't just take A camera out of another Dead iPhone And put it into a new iPhone You know Into a different thing Because it's serialized Right People don't And people don't realize That People like Louis Rossman Can't buy The chip From You know They can't buy it From anywhere They have to De-solder it From another Freaking board And put it in And even then It might be Bloody serialized You know It's like They don't realize That's the real problem

Chris Gammell: So you were saying Another You can't just Switch it out With another camera

Dave Jones: No Because they're Serialized That's one of The major problems Which Apple Didn't Address in their Solutions For the right to repair

Chris Gammell: Ah I see

Dave Jones: See There's two major problems That you hear Louis Rossman complain Right He's our benchmark Right Of course He's our litmus test As soon as he stops Complaining It's solved Right So it's like

Chris Gammell: I don't think I think he'll stop Complaining broadly But I think Maybe about Apple He'll give them props When it's due I think Oh yeah No

Dave Jones: No

Chris Gammell: Totally Yeah he will

Dave Jones: Yeah he's a straight shooter Right Yeah Jinx

Chris Gammell: Yep Yep

Dave Jones: You're it Which means you can't talk You can't talk You have to chase me No sorry It's a Once again It's a bluey reference It's a bluey episode Oh you know I always heard The bluey episode Fairy tale

Chris Gammell: You gotta like Buy me a coke At that point Yeah

Dave Jones: Right Right Is that the American equivalent Is it

Chris Gammell: I don't know I guess chase me Was one thing as well But it was like later

Dave Jones: Right Oh okay

Chris Gammell: You'd like buy the other person Something

Dave Jones: Oh okay Yeah There you go But anyway Yeah two issues Component serialization And not being able to buy The parts They actually limit Specifically limit the part To only them So that TI Even though TI made it And it's got a TI part number You can't buy it Can't buy it Yeah Right It's specifically for them And there's nothing special about it Right It's just It's no Right Yeah It's just Apple deliberately do it And other men They deliberately do it And they put it into the contract We're gonna buy 50 million of these chips from you And you One of the stipulations Is if you want this contract You can't sell that to anyone else And it's like Yeah Bastards You know Yeah And they're They're some of the major problems Right Because the repair centers Right They can develop their own methods They can develop their own tools To actually repair things And stuff like that But To actually do it To the component level They need the ability To be able to Salvage components Right From damaged motherboards And you know Laptop motherboards And phone motherboards And stuff They need the ability To swap good parts With bad parts And they need the ability To buy the parts From the regular Mouses and digi keys Of the world Right I mean I don't think That's a huge amount to ask And And it's This stuff is done Deliberately By the manufacturers Right It's a deliberate Ploy To prevent Repair Right So that you have to Buy a new widget And keep their You know Hundred Two hundred billion dollars In cash Right So flowing Right It's Yeah Yeah That's all Yeah Zero debt And you know What was it I don't know What are they up to Like you know Three hundred billion In cash Yeah it's a lot of cash It's a lot of cash They could buy small nations You know Anyway Enough of the right to repair Speaking of Speaking of money Arduino We'll finish off shortly Arduino raised Thirty two million In series B That's right

Chris Gammell: Yeah I mean I thought

Dave Jones: Arduino were You know It's like meh Like Kind of

Chris Gammell: Yeah you know They're getting more Into industrial space They have like a pro line And stuff like that Right Cool

Dave Jones: Right I just haven't caught You know It's just Like so 2010s

Chris Gammell: I had basically Heard about the Bosch You know So Bosch basically Announced they were Like had like A hundred million dollar fund And then like A couple days later They're like Oh yeah And we invested in Arduino It's like one of the They were like one of the big Investors And the Arduino thing So yeah

Dave Jones: There you go

Chris Gammell: It's interesting like when Bosch or you know Other large companies like this You know I guess you don't hear The Apple's Well ARM

Dave Jones: ARM apparently did And Renesys as well Renesys Oh they had like Investing on it Yeah yeah They're Three of the biggies Who invested in this round I guess

Chris Gammell: Yeah I mean That makes sense Except for

Dave Jones: Why do they need the money What's What is the plan Like what's the You know Have they got like a road map To do something Surely You know

Chris Gammell: I assume To grow bigger That's

Dave Jones: Simply grow bigger We will grow bigger Our plan

Chris Gammell: What is our plan I don't think it's going to be like So if you hear it and be like Oh Are they going to make more You know You know what they're going to do With that 32 million Dave They're going to buy One reel of that Mega 328 piece

Dave Jones: Right Yes Which is right over the plate

Chris Gammell: Oh boy Yep I saw those recently They were $35 each In quantity Listed online So Enjoy folks That's a microcontroller From the 80s Yep Well it's not from the 80s

Dave Jones: Actually

Chris Gammell: Is it 90s I thought it was pretty old

Dave Jones: Yeah it's pretty old 328 It's got to be No Oh

Chris Gammell: Let's see Let's see what Google says

Dave Jones: I have to know I have to know

Chris Gammell: Wikipedia says It came out Oh it has a wiki page Does it 8-bit AVR

Dave Jones: I'm going by the Data sheet And the data sheet Only has a 2015 date It doesn't have Usually like they put in The old date I like it when they put in The old date You know Like they Copyright 1977

Chris Gammell: Right But then it's like Yeah maybe it was updated Two years ago But Yeah

Dave Jones: I think you know Keep it in for historical purposes So that us You know So that the few nerds out there Could actually read it In 30 years time And go Ah That's when it was released You know

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: Please Manufacturers That's our bitch for this week Right It's like Yeah Please keep original Copyright date in there

Chris Gammell: Yeah

Dave Jones: Why not

Chris Gammell: I can't find it I don't know All of these The internet's not old enough Dave Just kidding Huh

Dave Jones: It has to be in there It has to be on the interwebs Well The The AVR family Didn't come out until 1996 Right

Chris Gammell: There you go All right So It's got Yeah

Dave Jones: I thought it was like Early 2000s I thought it was like And the 328 Was not one of the early ones

Chris Gammell: That's right Yeah There's a 128 first And yeah Other stuff in that family

Dave Jones: There's Yeah No Definitely So I'm I'm thinking my Bet's early 2000s So

Chris Gammell: Yeah Anywho They're very expensive right now And as for Arduino I don't know Oh no I don't know I You know When I usually hear about people raising money It's usually to grow teams And spend marketing dollars And just to To be bigger You know So To do more things Dave You know They've been getting into They They are into I was listening to The Stacy on IoT podcast And she had Fabio Violante The CEO On And then he was talking about the Portenta And that thing is a beast It's basically a Linux computer You know So like They're definitely moving up the stack You know So like They're not just Doing Just low You know Small microcontrollers And stuff like that It's Big IoT type stuff as well So

Dave Jones: Yep

Chris Gammell: Yeah I'll link in that I'll link in Stacy's show with him That was pretty good So Good luck Arduino

Dave Jones: Cool bananas Yep And good luck to Russia And Belarus Who now cannot buy any CPU From Taiwan Over 25 meg Yeah Yeah Yeah So is that Like

Chris Gammell: I don't know if I posted it in the In the channel But there was You know They've been doing some teardowns of like Russian weapons and stuff Obviously we're talking about The Ukraine Yes Yeah Obviously Russia has been Imposing And And you know I I just I was reading it And I could hear all the PR Buttholes Of different chip companies You know Tightening up Because of All of the mentions Of the TIs And the analog devices And the intels of the world And you know Because it's just like There are parts in these things They're modern microcontrollers And modern Modern chips that are in them Yeah But like They're Like They probably couldn't Put out PR Press releases fast enough We're like No that wasn't We didn't sell it to them You know Like I was through a third party marketer Yeah And like You know Sourcing works right Like that That is a huge hassle Oh yeah of course That's the entire job Even for people in the US It's like ITAR and stuff like that Is a You know Something to keep Parts in the US You know Anyone who's gone through An international purchase Through a distributor Usually has to do that sort of thing

Dave Jones: And it's not just components It's not foolproof It's products as well Like I can't buy A thermal camera In Australia That's over 8 frames per second Oh yeah Due to ITAR The regs Right Oh yeah Like those Those FLIR cameras You can buy In the US They're deemed Weapons grade Because they're over I think 8 frames per second So they actually Have to Software They actually have to Software limit it To sell it Into other countries

Chris Gammell: Oh interesting

Dave Jones: So yeah Yeah And that's all Part of the ITAR thing So Yeah Yeah

Chris Gammell: I mean When I think of ITAR Usually I think of Nuclear Non-proliferation Type stuff Like that's what I usually Think of But I mean I think there's also Weapons manufacturing And stuff like that

Dave Jones: Oh no Yeah That's a big part If you remember Back in I don't know if you remember this But you remember When the Xbox was No Was it the Playstation Was released They wouldn't sell it Into certain countries Because it could be used For nuclear weapon research The CPU in it Or the GPU Was so powerful That they Yeah They wouldn't sell it Into certain countries Because At the time It was the world's Most powerful GPU Or something You know And yeah And it could be used That was That was The government excuse It could be used For nuclear weapons Simulation research Right So you couldn't sell A Playstation to North Korea Or somebody

Chris Gammell: Yeah I don't know How you put a lid On any of these things Honestly Not that there's A reason not to do it If you know If that's a country's Prerogative to do That sort of thing But like I don't know How you You know So you could slow people Down with like An ITAR type of thing On a DigiCare Mouser or whatever

Dave Jones: No but it's going to Get through back channels You know

Chris Gammell: Exactly It's like Oh it's more expensive Okay well A nation state That wants to do This sort of thing Probably is going to Find a way

Dave Jones: I'm sure they can buy A Playstation somewhere You know I'm sure I can get one You know Yeah Yeah

Chris Gammell: It's Oh boy Yep Big Big Big government stuff Huh Yep We should end on A more positive note If we can Anything positive From our list I was looking for If there was a chip Of the week I saw I saw one That it was Maybe a chip Of the week But it was like So crazy Like integrated That it was Literally The two inputs And outputs On this thing It was like A cellular module That I saw Earlier this week It was like Battery in Antenna out Like that was That was the basis Of the chip Like that's how Integrated it was It's like Holy crap That's the level We're getting to You know Amazing

Dave Jones: Did we mention The plasma display Laser pointer Ben Krasnow Thing

Chris Gammell: Mr. Krasnow Yeah Did we mention that Last time

Dave Jones: Because he did I think maybe When it was originally Done But he's done A follow up video

Chris Gammell: Was this the follow up But I didn't think This was

Dave Jones: I don't know It's the one On reddit Yes Yes The one in reddit Is the follow up video Yep Yep And he goes into Notepad drawings Of how it all works And stuff like that Yeah Yep Yep Yep It's Very well done

Chris Gammell: Exciting the different things And like it Moves up electron levels And you know It's just the usual Ben awesomeness

Dave Jones: The interesting thing is He didn't discover this It's actually in a patent Somebody actually patented This technique

Chris Gammell: So No he said he found He found the technique later You know he found the patent later though

Dave Jones: Oh yeah No he Yeah Yeah He found the patent later But it turns out That yeah It's This was already known And it was And it was patented

Chris Gammell: Yeah he said it was one of his co-workers It was one of his co-workers That did it

Dave Jones: Oh right Okay Yeah

Chris Gammell: Yeah Yeah

Dave Jones: Amazing So yeah Anyway It's cool It's very cool

Chris Gammell: Yeah it's great Yeah I mean If people aren't watching Every single

Dave Jones: Ben Krasnow video

Chris Gammell: Applied science video Like what are you doing with your lives

Dave Jones: I know Exactly

Chris Gammell: Do you have any new channels That you watch every single video like that Do you find new ones that I feel like that's always the thing Where it's like You can always find a new channel Someone's like Oh a new channel And I can just go through Their whole back catalog And just like watch everything You know If I would have found Applied science now Of course I would go watch everything Anything new

Dave Jones: Yeah Not from an engineering Point of view I don't think so You know There's one You know There's like space ones That I'm into And stuff like that Oh I see You know Other ones But Quite a lot of those videos Are Those are news Current News Kind of thing So you can't You know There's no value in going back And watching Old videos I just feel like

Chris Gammell: Getting outside my own recommendation You know Whatever YouTube says Like

Dave Jones: Yep

Chris Gammell: How am I ever going to find New stuff It's very rare

Dave Jones: No

Chris Gammell: I think the one Where I did go back And watch all of their stuff Is Shane From Stuff Made Here But like He's such a big channel It's not like People aren't like Oh I've never heard of him Stuff Made Here No Just like crazy engineering Shane's channel Is fantastic It's a lot of mechanical stuff But he rolls in electronics And yeah That's one where I definitely Went back and watched All of them So he's He's definitely got a big following Now Because of it So Right

Dave Jones: Ah you YouTubers So you have all this time To watch entire back catalogues Of YouTube channels You don't have enough time To go and see Top Gun at the movies

Chris Gammell: I didn't say I've done this recently

Dave Jones: Oh this was pre-child was it

Chris Gammell: That's right That's right

Dave Jones: Right Okay Got it

Chris Gammell: I'm sure I'll have time again You know Like it just gets easier right Isn't that Isn't that how it goes Yep I'm sure you have tons of time these days

Dave Jones: Oh yeah Total Yeah I'm just Yep Free as a bird Yep

Chris Gammell: Free as a bird Yep Yep

Dave Jones: Anyway Yes there are internet points on offer For anyone who can snap a really bad photo Of Chris Gammell at the booth Of the Oh Oh okay Yes because we've done this in previous years And people did actually snap photos Of you like falling asleep on the stand Or with a like a really depressed look on your face Or something like that

Chris Gammell: Yeah just like Yep Just slouched over Bad posture Gut hanging out Yep I have no doubt It'll just be You know It's probably just It could be like a gallery of me Just like Yes Chugging coffee to try and stay awake Right Because it's a time change How many days? Chowing on pretzels

Dave Jones: How many days is the stand?

Chris Gammell: Three days total

Dave Jones: Three days Yep Three days of awesomeness Of standing there On the stand

Chris Gammell: Three days of just saying the same thing over and over Yep Yeah If anything just come by to Break the number It's going to be great I get to I get to talk about the stuff I've been building So that's fun

Dave Jones: Yeah No I was so bored on the stand At one point I hopped in a car And headed to The HP Garage

Chris Gammell: Oh okay That's the way to do it Yeah Yeah Yep There's a museum of its own

Dave Jones: I just went screw this You know Yeah Yeah I bugged it off the HP Garage for an hour Because it was only short drive away Yeah exactly So I thought Oh yeah

Chris Gammell: I'm sure there's some stuff I could go see in Nuremberg So Yep Alright Cool Yeah I'll be away for a week But looking forward to chatting with you when I get back Catch you next time See you

Speaker ?: administered in Nuremberg administered in Nuremberg administered in Nuremberg Thank you.