#409 – Electronics Consultant Impedance Matching

Chris Gammell: This is The Amp Hour Podcast. Release September 30th, 2018. Episode 409. Electronics Consultant Impedance Matching. Welcome to The Amp Hour. I'm Chris Gammell of Contextual Electronics.

Peter: Hi, I'm Peter from OneWidSquared.

Eric Thompson: Hello, I'm Eric Thompson from LowVoltageLabs.

Dave Young: And I'm Dave Young from Young Circuit Designs.

Chris Gammell: Welcome, guys. Thanks for showing up today. This is all a last-minute put-together panel of sorts. Thanks to my travel this week, I was like, oh, man, what am I going to do for The Amp Hour? And then I was also stressed about consulting stuff, and I was thinking, what if I just ask some people I know about consulting stuff? So, yeah, that's what we're doing here today. So we're going to talk about basically being an electronics consultant, something I'm very new to, and I already have a bunch of questions about. So all of you have either done or are doing electronics consulting. And I should mention as well, there are many other past guests of The Amp Hours I couldn't get a hold of. And so if I didn't talk to you, I'd love to do this kind of thing again in the future from a very selfish standpoint as well. And, yeah, so why don't we give a little background and go in that same order of, you know, what you're doing now, but also like what your consulting background is.

Peter: Yeah, so I own OneBitSquared, and it is mostly my main business, is actually developing stuff for my own company, but I do provide consulting services through that same company too. And we provide either complete packages for developing certain devices, tools, and we also do project-related stuff.

Eric Thompson: Great. Eric, what about you? So I own Low Voltage Labs. I've been doing consulting for, I think, about 10 years. And then I have some products too. In my case, the products and the consulting have been almost completely separate. There's been very little crossover.

Peter: Oh, yeah. So to that point, it's like part of the consulting is actually developing products that then later become also OneBitSquared products, which dials in the pricing and everything, which is very complicated. Dave, how about you?

Dave Young: Yeah, so I run Young Circuit Designs. I do a bunch of early stage usually for small companies and startups, just trying to get people from this, like I have an idea or we have an Arduino platform or something like that, all the way through to like manufacturing, 1,000, 10,000 units or whatever they need to really be to the next stage. And then I also run Blue Stamp Engineering. Chris, you and I have talked about that before. It's a summer program for high school students. So between those two things, I keep pretty busy.

Chris Gammell: Well, another piece of historical note, which I may have mentioned when Dave was on the show the first time is that Dave left Keithley when I was there. Dave and I worked together at Keithley and then he left to actually go do consulting. That was nine years ago. I know, it's been a while. It has been a while. And I found a journal actually where I was writing to myself about this and like, oh man, I saw that Dave's leaving for consulting and I wonder how that's going to go for him. And so it's been interesting now that I've gone into it and it's been these nine years later. So how was that as a relatively younger person as well, I suppose? You know, you were pretty young for going to consulting.

Dave Young: Yeah, well, it was nice because, you know, when you're in your 20s, you don't need a lot. So it took me, between Blue Stamp and Young Sirius Designs, it took a few years before I was making reasonable money. And being able to run lean for a few years was certainly helpful. Definitely. But then even more shocking than like, hey, I'm not getting a paycheck anymore was, you know, there's no more Friday happy hours with the coworkers. There's no more like, I've got this problem, so I'm going to go hang out at lunch and talk to these guys about it while we're hanging out or eating or whatever. You know, the biggest shock, I think, for me was the loss of that camaraderie with the coworkers. That was a big deal.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, no, that is a huge deal. How do you guys deal with that, like Peter and Eric? How did you, I mean, do you do meetups? Do you do social stuff? I mean, Peter, you're kind of out in the woods, huh?

Peter: Yeah, well, ha, ha, ha.

Chris Gammell: I mean, you know, like you're, but I always see you at Portland stuff, but you're actually in some other part of Oregon, right?

Peter: Yeah, I'm in Eugene, Oregon, which is two hours south from Portland. So it's still a city, I would say, even though some Portlanders wouldn't agree with that. But anyways, you know,

Chris Gammell: it's almost hipsters too much, man. Yeah, and- Eric, we'll let you weigh in later, don't worry.

Peter: Yeah. But yeah, I actually had, when I moved to Eugene, I was in California before that, and I worked there for a company, and then I started One Bit Squared here. And it took, basically the first year, year and a half, I was pretty much only in the office at home, and then you start really developing a cabin fever symptoms.

Speaker ?: Oh, yeah.

Peter: And so my, and I would call myself quite a social person, so I need the social component. So I actually realized that something is off and wrong. So I looked up a local hackerspace and started going there. And like, basically, I started forcing myself to go there because you always have something to do. It's your company, your startup. So basically, it's, some people say you just work all the time. And yeah, it's true. And you have to force yourself to take time off. And I had to do that. I started going to the hackerspace. And then these days, I'm trying to drive up to Portland for the DarkBot PDX once a month. And then also the conferences are very useful too, where you can combine the pleasant with business is basically mingling with people, connecting with people, talking about new projects, collaborations, and stuff like that. So that's how I deal with the fact that I'm working from home. And you don't have, as they said, it's like, you don't have people around you.

Eric Thompson: Yeah. So Eric, you're up in Portland, right? I'm in the Portland area. Yes. And I found actually that I end up with a lot of clients who want me to come in for meetings or to work on projects with them together. So I haven't had as much of that, you know, feeling left out of that group. In fact, sometimes I want more time on my own because I seem to end up in too many like meetings and too much time wanting clients wanting me there. So when I have a day where I can have a whole day to myself in my own office, I feel relieved a little bit. But strangely enough,

Peter: You can move to Eugene. You're welcome. That's right.

Eric Thompson: But I also found early on when you guys started the Amp Hour, I didn't have as much of that. And listening to you and Dave talk about projects and things going on was kind of part of my connection to tell you the truth.

Chris Gammell: Oh, okay. Yeah, like the water cooler, the water cooler effect of the Amp Hour. Exactly. Yeah, us getting together to bitch and moan about whatever.

Dave Young: Right, right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Young: I love the client list or the client meetings because then you get to, you know, put a face to the name and you can get to know the people personally and be like, oh, we've been talking over the phone and over Zoom for like a month, but now we get to hang out and we can grab beers afterwards or whatever. It makes the projects just so much more fun and engaging. Chris, you work out of M Hub, right? I've been thinking about joining, trying to find a co-working space like that. Have you found that to be helpful at all?

Chris Gammell: You know, I have. It's been good so far. But the interesting thing is that like, and you know, they've actually done some interesting things around trying to get joint work for people that are there even. So doing like, they contract out the gig as the organization and then they take a small cut and then they, you know, they pass it through to the consultants on site. And that's been good for like really big clients that I could never talk to otherwise, you know, like ones in the area. But mostly it's just that social connection piece, like Peter and Eric are talking about it. Like it's just that just seeing humans is, even if you're not interacting with them on a professional level, it's just sometimes having other humans around. That is why I did it. I may have told the story on the show before, but like I was sitting in my apartment working remote for Supply Frame and it was, you know, that was all going well. But like it was two days after like I had a meeting at like, you know, 9 p.m. or something like that and I did a bunch of other work. It was like one in the morning and I fall back into bed and I go, oh, forgot to schedule that meeting. And then I remember that I hadn't spoken out loud in the past two days prior to that. So that's when I joined M Hub as one does, you know, when you feel like you're actually talking to yourself. So, right. Yeah, it's tough though, right? I mean, these are, some of it is just the base human stuff and some of it is that professional, you know, how do you actually connect with a client, right? I mean, that it's hard to, you need that connection pretty much or else why are people paying attention to you? Why are they deciding to pay you? All these things that are just important consulting type thing. I mean, really just work things, right? So maybe you guys had experiences with that of not being able to get their attention because you haven't met them in person. I don't know how much you're sourcing work remote versus, like what's the split you'd say local versus remote for each of you?

Eric Thompson: I have found that 90, I'd probably say 95% of the work I've gotten has been through someone I knew that I worked for before in person. I mean, I just, that's been almost all my work is either that person or a connection or a personal reference. Like I've gotten such little amounts of work through the internet or advertising or that kind of stuff that I've tried.

Peter: Yeah, the internet thing is I was contacted a few times by people that were semi-interested but you never know how really interested they are. And unfortunately, I think pretty much all of those encounters ended up being, it's like, oh, we can't even afford that. It's like, oh, did you even think about this?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. For material and your time.

Peter: Yeah, I had some really crazy stuff coming. It's like people contacting me related to the UAV stuff and they were like, yeah, I want to build this thing that is like super amazing and goes all around the world and da-da-da-da-da. I'm like, okay, and what is your funding? Because this won't be cheap. And they're like, well, I have no idea. We will get back to you. Well, it's how many years later? No.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It turns out that guy wanted money. We dropped him like a bad habit.

Dave Young: You can really sort people out when you start asking for people to write checks.

Peter: Yeah, right.

Dave Young: You know, it's like, your first question is, what's your funding situation? And then we're like, oh, we got tons of funding. We're really well funded. And it's like, okay, that sounds great. So here's what it usually costs and let's get started and let's kick off an hourly agreement and we'll figure out what you need to get done. And then they realize, you know, maybe they're not as far down the road as they thought.

Peter: Oh, how reluctant people are to go into hourly contracts. This is always such a pain. It's like, you guys probably have the same issue where it's like, okay, this person has this project and you're like, well, my hourly rate is so and so. And they're like, oh, well, can you estimate how much this project will cost overall? And it's like, I could maybe, but this will be very rough and you will have to pay me hourly. And they are still, I don't know, how do you deal with this?

Dave Young: Yeah. Yeah. But on the flip side, I understand what they're asking for because like, I'm looking at having a bunch of work done on my house and, you know, getting an estimate is a challenge, but I don't want to sign a guy on hourly and then find out $20,000 later that he's only a quarter done with the job.

Peter: No, no, of course, I understand where it is coming from. But I had a few projects that I took on as a project estimate. It's like, okay, lump sum, this is the project. And every time I lost on this. Oh, yeah. Is that right? Yeah. It never worked out. It was always a moving target, always new requirements from the client. It was quite unpleasant at the end. And, yeah, I don't really want to work with these people anymore. It's really unpleasant.

Dave Young: Well, the way I dealt with that is, I won't, so I love fixed bid contracts. They're actually my favorite way to work because then I don't feel like, you know, if I've got a fixed bid contract, I don't feel bad about going on a run and thinking about a bunch of different ideas or like, you know, going swimming or hanging out with my dog and thinking about ideas where if I'm charging by the hour, I really feel like, you know, anytime I'm on the clock, I'm 100% on the clock. So, if I can do fixed bid, I much prefer it. But, I won't enter a fixed bid unless we have not only a set of deliverables, so like, these are the things I'm going to do for you but also acceptance criteria. So, here are the tests we're going to run and these are the outcomes that we need in order for this to be considered a completed contract. And so, if I have both of those things, I mean, if I have both of those things, I can get pretty accurate with the estimates and I'm usually within like 5% or 10%.

Peter: That is a good tip, yeah. Yeah, the projects that I had were usually really new things from scratch. Yeah, like research-based stuff. Research-based stuff. Yeah. You can't do that fixed bid.

Chris Gammell: I mean, that is kind of interesting thing. It's almost like, is this engineering or is it science or like, where does it fall in between the two, right? And it sounds like, Peter, the stuff you were doing were more science-y, hey, let's see where this all goes kind of thing.

Peter: Yeah, it's like, you have some like initial requirement that says like, okay, we want to build some like electronic circuit that does the thing. But then you're like, well, but now we have to switch microprocessors and completely rewrite the firmware because it doesn't meet the requirements anymore and they are not willing to rewrite the contract and pay again, you know? It's like, it's difficult.

Eric Thompson: Yeah, I've actually had a split of about half of them being fixed and half being more open and I totally agree with Dave. The times I've gotten burned is when I didn't have a set requirement of here's what we're going to do in a project, right? And here's what the, you know, here's what the finished product is going to be. But when I've had those kind of things, I've stuck to smaller projects or fixed bids and it's, and it's worked out.

Chris Gammell: Okay, so let's summarize real quick. So run down the list of, so each of you, Dave, Dave, you go first. So what's the remote to local and then, and then what's your fixed bid to hourly, like percentage wise?

Dave Young: Sure. So my remote to local, I just moved less than a year ago to Rochester, New York from Denver. So,

Chris Gammell: yes, we know Dave.

Dave Young: Yeah. So it's like,

Chris Gammell: I helped him move.

Dave Young: Chris is in the truck with me from Denver to Chicago. That's right.

Chris Gammell: Awesome.

Dave Young: But I, I'd say before then I was probably, I don't know, maybe 30% local, 70% remote. And now, you know, now it's 100% remote. And I imagine soon I'll get some local clients, but it takes a while to break in. Got it. And then fixed versus hourly. Well, what I do, so to your point, guys, if I don't have the requirements and the acceptance criteria, I say, well, hey, let's do this. Let's do an hourly agreement for now. And let's have, every 10 hours, we'll check in. So I'll explain to you, hey, I'm at 10 hours. Are you okay with the way things are going? Should we continue? Or do you want to cut it off? And then, we'll use that, we'll do as many 10 hour segments as we need in order to get to the point where we can write acceptance criteria and spec doc. So, then they have some idea, like, well, they're not going to be writing blank checks for forever. Right. That's good. But then I have some, I have some R&D time where I can kind of monkey around with it. So given that, I'd say, I'd say probably maybe half of my work, maybe three quarters is fixed bid. And then the other half or 25% is hourly.

Chris Gammell: Okay. So 75, 25 hourly.

Dave Young: Yeah, I'd say that, but you know, it's always so fluid because there's clients that want to like, they want to do that hybrid arrangement.

Chris Gammell: Well, Peter, I'm going to have you go last because I think that you're a special case because you're not doing much consulting. Eric, what about you?

Eric Thompson: So I'm probably 80 or 90% local. And then the last, you know, 10, 20 is remote. And then on the other stuff, I'm probably a third fixed and two thirds more open-ended. And my open-ended ones have ended up being more like, we want you 20 hours a week, like kind of an agreement where we say, you know, we want you to be available for us, you know, 20 to 25 hours a week and come into a meeting and those kinds of things.

Chris Gammell: So it's almost like a retainer at that point. Exactly.

Eric Thompson: Yeah.

Dave Young: Okay. Yeah. Hey, when they, when they did that deal with you, Eric, did they, if they didn't use the hours, didn't you still charge them for it? Yep. Yeah. I had, I had one client ask to have the deal, but if it was under bid, then they wanted the guarantee of 20 hours a week, but they, they didn't want it to pay if it was not used. It's like, well, wait a minute.

Eric Thompson: Every time I've done that, actually I've done it three times now. I'm doing one now. I have, they've had so much work that I've, I meet that, you know, 20 hours every week. Like I've never had a case where, where it's gone more than, you know, a few days. And then you just cut it off though?

Chris Gammell: Is that like, you're like, all right, I'm done. See ya.

Eric Thompson: Yep.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Eric Thompson: Or, or I've made a deal with that where if it's something really busy, I've worked more that week. And then the next week I've taken that, you know, 10 hours off or something like that. Sure.

Chris Gammell: That's almost a closer, like a part-time job at that point, you know, like a contract.

Eric Thompson: Yeah, a little bit. Sometimes since you're not an employee, you don't have some of the same, they can't say, you know, you're going to stay tonight because you're, you're staying. So. So Peter, what about you?

Peter: Well, as you mentioned before, it's like, for me, it's probably 75% actually still working for myself and for One Bit Squared. Okay.

Chris Gammell: So you're saying your product business. Yeah. My own business. So it's like. Yeah, your product business versus your consulting. So you're saying only a fraction of your time is anyway.

Peter: Yeah. And in the past, I had several clients that were project-based and they were, that was, that was it. And this was developing some specific for them. And then more recently, and these were all remote things, like, like in Europe even. Okay. And so, and now more recently, I'm doing something local and this is hourly and it is, it basically, these are great people to work with because they, they are quite flexible. On the other hand, they want a continuous, like progress. So it's more on the level of like, oh, one day a week or two days a week, I work basically for them without the requirement of going into an office. And this is pretty nice. So that's. Yeah, that sounds like a great arrangement.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. What is, what is the, what would you guys say is your best client too? I mean, like best type of client, you know, because it sounds like, you know, everybody has their preferences and how they want to work and everything, but it's also, it sounds like there's a client archetype here that, that you would chase if you could, if you had your choice.

Eric Thompson: I actually like having the, the kind of 20 hours a week client as my base. And then a small project here and there that kind of comes and goes. Cause then I, it gives me some flexibility to do those other small projects and not worry about, you know, do I have enough money this month to cover everything?

Chris Gammell: Oh, okay. So that's like that, that earns the, that earns the, the rent and the food check. And then yeah, it's just for fun. A little more risky. Right.

Peter: Yeah. I can have to agree a hundred percent with that. It's like, this is the arrangement I have at the moment is pretty much ideal.

Dave Young: Yeah. I got to tell you, I've never had, I've never had stability in the nine years that I've been doing this. Like that sounds awesome. Thanks for that. Yeah. Good luck, Chris. But having that 20 hour week job that may be like, okay, this is going to last for a year. I, I've, that sounds great. I've not had that instead. I've kind of structured. So I've kind of, I've structured my life so that I, I have the expectation of uncertainty. And so I've got things so that if there's things that can be delayed, I can move them around. And then when things really need to happen very quickly, I have the flexibility to do that because yeah, I don't, I don't know what it's like to have that like 20 hour week retainer. Well,

Eric Thompson: well, and I wouldn't say it's all that stable. It's, I mean, it's cause I always assume it can end any day. Right. Um, but, but it is, it is different than having just lots of different projects for sure.

Dave Young: Yeah. Yeah. Cause that's my, that's my attitude.

Peter: It's not like an actual job where you have some safeties and benefits and everything. And that's, uh, why, um, this is, I think also the source of a lot of people not understanding why, uh, consultants are charging as much as they do usually is because they don't understand. It's like, but you are not, uh, paying, uh, insurance. You are not, uh, obligated to have them employed and not being able to fire them like overnight and many other things that people like dismiss and don't think about until they actually have to start hiring people or consultants. I don't know.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Actually. So, uh, former guest, uh, Philip Frieden actually wrote a document about this and I put, I linked this to you guys, but I'll, I'll put this in the show notes too, but it was basically like he wrote an interview with himself about consulting and that was one of the big things you wrote about. Obviously you need the, you know, obviously stateside, um, it's going to be different than other places for insurance and stuff like that. But, but just generally the stability pieces is, is not, not guaranteed. Right.

Dave Young: You know, it's funny, Chris, when, when I went out to start my own consulting business, you sent me this link and I bookmarked it and it's still bookmarked

Chris Gammell: because this is a different one though. So the, the Unix whiz is a different one.

Dave Young: Oh, okay. I thought you were talking about that.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So there's the, so flip tronics is the one I was talking about just now and that's Phillips. Uh, the other one that Dave mentioned is the, so you want to be a consultant? Uh, this is one that I send to people all the time and it's, uh, uh, the top line is why work eight hours a day for someone else when you can work 16 hours a day for yourself. I don't remember when I found this thing, but I, that is just like the snarky attitude of it all. Uh, I think I mentioned on the show a couple of times too. It's good stuff. Um,

Eric Thompson: you also have things like, like tools, like an oscilloscope laptop. I mean, I have my laptop one day just die out of the blue. And so here I was, I didn't have an employer, so I had to go find a, you know, thousand dollar laptop to that same day. So I can keep working. Right. So, yeah.

Dave Young: And all that stuff is full price when you're, when I need this today. Okay. Right. To check. Like there's no hanging out waiting for a deal to come by for black Friday or whatever. Right. It's very different buying things for your business versus buying things personally.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. And it's like, you are not, you cannot throw your weight around and say like, yeah, dude, give me a better price here.

Dave Young: Yeah. Yeah. I need it.

Chris Gammell: Don't you know who I am? I have Chris. The overhead. Yeah. Chris. The one person company that you'll never hear from again. Once I've bought your product. The bigger problem for me is the,

Dave Young: the time overhead. So, you know, when, when I was working in the corporate offices, I would be like, man, the consultant always leaves Thursday and everybody has coming on Friday. And now that I'm a consultant, it's like, man, I could spend one day a week doing whatever cleanup needs to be done for the business. So you're talking like overhead and yeah. Like time overhead. Like if, if you need to run invoices or if you need, like I was just cleaning my lab. That takes me half a day. Normally a company would have somebody come in and do that for you. Or, um, you know, your part breaks or your tool breaks or something like that. Everything takes time. And, uh, and that's before you start maintaining a website and, uh, doing the whole,

Eric Thompson: you know, bookkeeping thing. Uh,

Chris Gammell: no. Yeah. Yeah.

Eric Thompson: Even things like installing software. Sometimes I'm like, do I charge this to a client? Because, you know, it took me a half, you know, half an hour to install some new piece of software. Well, that doesn't seem fair to the client, but right.

Peter: So here is the charge for the two days I spent installing very log. Right.

Chris Gammell: Right. I also have a bill for all the hair that I tore out. I need to get a weave now. Yeah, no, it's true. And I think, um, so, uh, I, I did not ask Alicia in time. Obviously Alicia from embedded, uh, is another person I bug about, uh, consulting stuff all the time too. And she gave me great advice about like, look, if it's not something you'd be doing for your, if it's something you wouldn't be doing otherwise, you should be willing to a client. But I think that you're right that like, you know what, where do you balance that stuff? It's kind of like the, the guilt and the overhead of doing these things. It's like, well, this is for my computer. So what about it's on my computer? Isn't my software, that kind of thing.

Dave Young: Right. Yeah. Or like I'm installing this for, uh, all my clients. Like, okay, I got to update Altium and that screwed something up. So I got to go back and dig through stuff that can take a couple hours. And, um, like I use that package for everybody. So I can't build that to anybody.

Peter: Yeah. Do you guys use, uh, uh, time tracking systems and basically like I'm now sitting here working for this client. So the timer is running for them. And yeah,

Dave Young: if I'm, if I'm hourly, I'm like, I'm like real hardcore about it. My wife comes in and asked me a question about something. I turn it off so that I can talk to her. Cause the thing is you never want to ever have even an, a hint of impropriety there, especially since I do so much remote, remote work.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Right.

Dave Young: Uh, you know, as soon as you like, there's a lot of trust built into that when you have this hourly arrangement and they're not there when you're working or whatever. Uh, so like I just, I just keep it so tight or to be honest, the tie goes to the client. So it's like, should I build this or shouldn't I? I usually lean towards, no, don't, don't bother billing it. Cause as soon as it doesn't smell good, then the trust is broken and then everything's, it doesn't matter if it was totally reasonable. It's, it's really the trust that matters.

Peter: Yeah, I agree. And, and which software do you use? I use toggle for example.

Chris Gammell: Um, I use, uh, I just use my accounting software actually. Um, zoom I use, or sign on zoom Zoho. I use Zoho books for everything.

Eric Thompson: I use a Android app called timesheet.

Dave Young: Man, you guys are all way more high tech than me. I just use a spreadsheet. It's like, I use a clock.

Speaker ?: Yeah.

Dave Young: Clock, spreadsheet. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean, at the end of the day, that's really what they're all coming down to. It's a database or spreadsheet. Right. But it's, I think it's interesting for me. I, uh, I ignore, I always ignore apps. Like I, I do better when I'm actually filling it out later. Um, and I tag like each thing I'm doing. So, but it's tough. I mean, there's a, and not only that, there's so many options out there these days. I mean, there's apps for everything. Right. Um, so it's like you read, you read like a top 20 things for consultant to use to track time. It's like, well, that doesn't help.

Dave Young: You know, all those productivity apps since, well, my application is really simple, right? Like time start time finished.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Young: Um, I always find that productivity applications that solve really easy, simple problems are a bigger hassle because they're always changing it, updating it, monkeying around with it. That's deprecated or whatever. It's just like, Oh my God, just give me a spreadsheet.

Chris Gammell: Well, but Dave, you're also an analog engineer. So you've got the built in like grumpiness. You've,

Dave Young: that is, that is true. You damn kids with your apps.

Chris Gammell: Right. Dave was a 40 or 85 year old man at the age of 25. So, okay. So we're talking about tracking time. We've been talking about software. We've been talking about all this stuff. And a lot of this is just logistical stuff. And it does sound like there's, I mean, there is a ton of overhead and just dealing with all that crap. But what about the work itself? I mean, like what is, what does that look like for you guys? I mean, is it, is it design work? Is it review work? Is it building stuff? What is it? What does it actually come down to? What are your specialties?

Dave Young: Oh yeah. See, that's, we've been talking about all the grumpy stuff. This is really why I've been consulting for so long is, uh, getting to do a lot of jobs. Uh, like the diversity of work and the depth of work are both, excellent. It's really hard to find a career job where you get both diversity and depth. And, uh, you know, when you, when you're on a team doing project a, and then six months later, you're on a different team doing project B, you will learn a ton about a ton of stuff and you're doing really neat. Like you're building things. Um, it's just so interesting to be able to, to bounce between the topics, learn everything, get the job done, uh, and then do something totally different the next year.

Eric Thompson: I totally agree. The, having the diversity has been the best part about consulting. Um, and for a while there, I kind of found a niche where there was companies that wanted to hire just one person to do the project. So I would do everything from, you know, help figure out what the requirements were to drawing a schematic, to doing the layout, to hand building prototypes, to writing firmware, you know, so we could go from, there were smaller projects to have a, you know, microcontroller in them, but I could go from beginning to end and they could take it off into production. And they liked that because they're just one person then.

Dave Young: Yeah. I do those all the time and it is great. I love those jobs.

Peter: Uh, the diversity is great. Actually, this is why I keep doing one bit squared and making my own products because I basically am pretty much fully vertically integrated as people would call it. It's including having a pick and place machine in the garage and like assembling stuff and things like that. You know, it's, uh, I really enjoy the fact that, um, I, I can manage my, a bit like this threat of burnout is much lower because, uh, one day you do one thing that occupies a different side of your brain. And another day you do a something different that occupies a different side of your brain. And, uh, uh, working for a, uh, company at one project, uh, it's much more likely because of the monoculture of the thing you are doing, you end up being much more like physically worn out faster. That's the feeling I'm getting. And, um, I did like in interviews a few years ago, just to see, it's like if, uh, companies would want me if I needed to. And they were like, yeah, but, uh, you can't do, uh, embedded hardware design and software. That's right. It doesn't compute.

Chris Gammell: Right.

Peter: Right. How, what would your title be? How would we move you up in the corporate hierarchy?

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah,

Peter: exactly. And it's like, it, these were like modern, like Silicon Valley companies that you would expect them to understand that crossover. Yeah.

Dave Young: Yeah. But, you know, from, from their perspective, I get what they're trying to do, right? They're trying to, the whole idea of a company is you get a bunch of people together, you get people to specialize, get extraordinarily good at this one thing, uh, and then turn the crank, you know, let's do it for another project, another project, another project, let's build and build and build. So I get what they're, what they're after and why that makes sense. Um, but Chris, you know, when we were in that design group at Keithley, uh, it was fun because we got to do all those different things. I like, we're talking manufacturing all the time. We're talking to part procurement. We were talking engineering. We're talking to, uh, uh, customers. And it was great. But if you wanted to move up from that role, uh, there weren't a ton of options. Like you had to basically go to manufacturing engineering or go to design engineering, or you had to go to the labs group or whatever. Uh, and that's, that was one of the things I was excited to, to consult. You just get to kind of bounce around.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, that's true. I mean, yeah, it is tough to kind of fit that in. I mean, like I think the, the, the best case scenario for a lot of people would be to do like what you guys are talking about, to do the, do a little bit of everything to sample the, the different styles and build the skills and everything, but then have the stability of a paycheck. Uh, which is interesting too, because you know, some people think, Oh, well the consulting side of things, you'll, you'll just do all that stuff and, and make more money. You know, you'll just, because you have a higher hourly rate, you'll make more money. And I heard, was it Eric snickering? I'm sure you're all snickering, right? I mean, like it's the thing is like, it's, it's just the, the lack of, uh, stability around it means that you're probably not billing. So that's what I wanted to ask next is like on average, how, I mean, I, I think I messaged Dave the other week and I was like, Hey, I had a zero hour week. Is that normal? Is that like, I feel really terrible about this. He's like, yeah, well, I mean, I don't know. What are the, what are the usual like build hours when you guys are doing hourly?

Eric Thompson: Um, it, it kind of depends, you know, where I'm at, but I found that reaching like 40 hours of build a week is like, happens very rarely for me to tell you the truth. Um, and 60 hours, actual work.

Dave Young: Yeah, it takes, you got another 50% on top of that to keep on top of everything.

Eric Thompson: And you know, like 10 years ago I was offered a job, um, I had, I had been a contract worker instead of a consultant with, um, Intel and they offered me a job. And I realized recently if I'd have taken that job and, and not gotten a raise, I, over the last 10 years, I probably would have been about the same place or, or better off. Like, like, yeah, yeah. If you just, and I don't know if that's true for the rest of you guys, but it's definitely ups and downs for,

Dave Young: well, and like I said at the beginning, it was getting it off the ground. There were some lean years there.

Eric Thompson: Yeah.

Dave Young: Uh, and that really, that really messes up the, the average. So like now it might, I might get a comparable job somewhere, but, um, when you take into account those first few years where you're not making much money, it's like, uh, maybe I should have just stayed at the corporate job. Right.

Peter: Yeah. For, for me, it is because of the other stuff that I'm doing. It's also, it's like, I don't know, five to 10 hours a week. And that's, that's, that's pretty much all I can hope for, which I actually want. It's like the, the funny thing is because my setup is so different. I am weighing my, uh, options and thinking it's like, should I do the consulting job or should I put more hours into my own business? And it is competing costs there.

Eric Thompson: Yeah. Right. Yeah. So I have kind of the opposite where, um, I have some, a product business also, but it's only about 10% of my income right now. And I'd like to do more with it, but when I'm, but I'm faced with, well, I can do client work and get paid or I can work on my business that isn't making a profit yet. You know, it's, it's hard to always justify that,

Chris Gammell: but yeah, that's true all around. I mean, I've got, I think all of us have different businesses than just consulting, which is another interesting thing. I mean, it sounds like Peter's the furthest towards product. Eric, you have product as well with low voltage labs. Dave, you have blue stamp engineering, which is kind of a seasonal thing. And then I have my course. Um, and if you call the amp hour business, I suppose I have that, but, uh, and yeah, I mean, I think it is just like the highest likelihood of, of making your paycheck kind of thing.

Dave Young: Yeah. Well, to answer your question, question, Chris, about the zero hour billable week. Um, I used to flip out about those two, but to be honest, once you have the, the 40 or 50 hour or 60 hour billable week, like when you go through a couple of those cycles where you're like, Oh my God, all I want is a zero hour week. Like I would love, love to take, to have a couple of weeks where there's zero hours billable.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Young: Uh, and once you go through a few of those cycles, it's like, okay, this is the way it's just going to be.

Chris Gammell: Right. It's just those ebbs and flows of everything. Yeah. You know, and it was, and you know, to, to, to my, that week's credit, I mean, it was the IMTS week when I was doing a bunch of meetups and meeting people. And that's already turned into contacts for future jobs that have already started to work out. So like that alone, it's like that that's reassuring, but it's, it's that kind of like local optimization versus like, you know, overall maximum opposite optimization of like, uh, weeks versus months versus years, you know, kind of timelines of projects and stuff like that. And obviously I'm very close to the early stages of all this stuff. So I'm still, yeah, that,

Dave Young: that's actually the, for me, the most challenging thing is, um, like I always say with the client, like, let's figure out what's best for the project and do that. So, um, that can be really frustrating when I like send a board out and the client wanted to go like low cost. They wanted to go macro fab. So I've got like a month before it's going to come back. Um, and then I was expecting this other client to be ready so that I could start on their thing and like the load balancing thing. And then they're like, Oh, we're not ready because we're trying to get, what's that?

Chris Gammell: Like sequencing of work from one. Yeah,

Dave Young: exactly. And then you're like, okay, I'm ready for this work. And they're like, Oh, we had this mechanical problem. It's going to be another couple of weeks. It was like, no, I was so ready. I was going to do so well, but then there's no, there's no control.

Peter: It's five people that you have to handle. In one day. Right. They all want to deliver on the 15th of the month.

Eric Thompson: Yeah. I think the time, the time management is my number one, um, problem that I, I can't seem to figure out. Cause like you say, someone will say, Oh, we're going to start next week with this project. And so you kind of try to plan around that. And then they change their mind or like something happens and, and just, yeah, it seems almost impossible to plan ahead like that.

Peter: Or randomly out of the blue, they write you an email. It's like, so can you have like seven of those ready for next week? Because we need it.

Chris Gammell: Yes. And so what do you do then, Peter? I mean, like, I mean, is that something you actually give credence to it? Or are you, do you, do you kind of say, well,

Peter: well, I'll go crazy. Yeah. I, I curse to myself and then I try to make it happen.

Dave Young: Yeah,

Peter: that's exactly right.

Dave Young: Cause if that, if that's what the project needs, cause that's the thing is I, you know, I've been developing projects for a long time and that's the nature of it. So I've just, I've just succumbed to it. Uh, and if I can, I'll, I'll say yes for a client to get what they need to get done. And even if I can't, like sometimes I'll sit down with my wife and I'm like, Bridget, this is about to happen.

Chris Gammell: You're not going to see me for a couple of weeks.

Dave Young: I'm going to need some help. For a while. And, uh, and we work and we try and find a way to make it happen.

Peter: Especially when it is, uh, in, in Mike is when it's like PCBs for some, for something, then it is like big thinking. It's like, do I rush order those and pay twice the price or don't I, do they really need it tomorrow? Or can we wait for three days?

Dave Young: That's my favorite thing to ask is like, so that's the first place I go to is like, well, let's just buy our time from the, from the PCB fab. Um, and then if they're like, no, we want to spend an extra couple hundred bucks. It's like, well, you don't really want it then. But if they're like, yes, thousand dollars, buy it. It's like, okay, if, if you guys are in it, then.

Chris Gammell: That is an interesting, like, uh, cause it, it also kind of speaks to what you were saying about the hourly stuff too. It's like, how serious are you? It's like dollars kind of speak or they are the ultimate deciding factor.

Eric Thompson: it's also, I think learning the client. Cause I've had clients who, who seem to like, everything's a fire drill and, and really it's not like, it's just, it's kind of their personality sometimes, you know? Like, yeah, like everything is super important. Everything has to be done today. And then I've, I've learned with those people. Well, that's not really true. They just, that's what they always say.

Chris Gammell: Well, what does that manifest as? And so like you would take action on something and they'd be like, well, we didn't really care about that. Like what would actually happen?

Eric Thompson: Um, what would happen is I would jump on things quick and try to like meet their demands and then something else would delay it or, you know, or they'd be like, Oh no, it's fine. Actually. Like it just, it would, it would manifest in things not really being that important later on. So then I, I would have to learn, okay, they always say this, you know? So, it's fine to get it done in two days. So, wow. Okay.

Peter: Yeah. I think it shows itself the best when you are like, okay, we need it next week so we can test it and do this and that. And you're deliver it. And then, uh, ask them. So did you like, by the end of that week, did you test it? It's like, Oh no, it's still sitting on my desk.

Chris Gammell: I've had that happen many times. Do they push back though? Then they're like, Oh wait, you charged extra hours for this. You charged extra rush shipping. Do they push back on you then? Cause that's the thing I wonder about is like, if they ask for it, you can at least point to it and say, well, you said you wanted it. So have you had bad experiences with that or what?

Eric Thompson: Uh, no, I haven't actually. No, if they've asked for it rushed and I've had to pay extra for PCBs or shipping or my time, I've never had a pushback on that.

Speaker ?: Okay.

Eric Thompson: That's good.

Dave Young: Yeah. But I, I've done the same thing, but I've never spent client money without permission. So like, if it's like, Hey, we're going to need to spend a thousand dollars to get these boards turned around quickly. They know about that in advance. Right. So that they can get approval. That's good. I have been in this situation where a client wanted, um, uh, like a whole design and they wanted it very fast cause they were going to have somebody else do it and it didn't work out. And so they wanted, they kind of wanted me to, to make up the time. Um, and so I quoted them, uh, I quoted them a different rate than they were used to. And that it was, uh, it was certainly a strain on the, on the business relationship. Um, but once I explained to them like what the situation was and what they're, what they were really asking, um, they were, they're totally okay. So I think it came, it comes down to, um, communication, making sure everybody knows before the work starts, um, what they're asking for and what they're going to get.

Eric Thompson: Yeah. And I always think about, um, setting expectations is a huge thing. Um, you know, whether you're doing a, an hourly project or if you're going to work 20 hours a week, you know, talking ahead of time, like how much time am I really going to be in your office? How much time, you know, do you expect me to like be available by text, you know, 24 seven, like, so those kinds of things are really important to work out in the beginning.

Chris Gammell: Have you turned down jobs because they were more stringent than you thought? Or I mean, like, have you guys, I guess this is a general question I want to ask anyways, is like, yeah, have you guys fired clients? Have you, have you had to have really tough conversations with a client?

Eric Thompson: I've, I've fired a client. Um, and it really came down to, uh, I, I called it the, uh, three strikes, um, because he was a very, it was an hourly job, but he was very demanding on my time. Like if he sent me a package, he would, if the tracking number should have been delivered, he would text me and ask me if I had started working on it yet. Um, and, and then on top of that, stalker stalker. Yeah. And he would, he paid late. Um, and I didn't like his project. So I just, at the end of the day, I just said, you know, I can't do this anymore. And I was kind of worried he wouldn't pay his last two bills and he actually ended up paying them. So.

Chris Gammell: Dave and Peter are fine with everything. They are happy and cheery. Apparently. Yeah. Great. Yeah. I never spoke a bad word of anyone. Definitely not over a beer.

Dave Young: Yeah. I've never had, I've never had a tough, you know, I've had uncomfortable conversations. Um, but you know, like Eric said, it's, it's, it's very important to set expectations and you have those conversations. The other thing is like uncomfortable conversations don't age well. So, um,

Chris Gammell: good point. Yep.

Dave Young: You know, and that's true. Just as true with clients as it is with your wife, as it is with your kids, as it was anybody. It's, it's like, okay, we need to have this conversation and, uh, let's just do it.

Chris Gammell: And when you say don't age well, you mean don't sit on the conversation and wait around for when it gets worse, that kind of thing.

Dave Young: Yeah. If you wait, it's only going to be worse. Right. So the time. Yeah. Yeah. You just, you just gotta, you just gotta figure out what it is. And the other thing that I found is like, if I was in their shoes, what would I want? I guess there's, I've, I've grown a great deal of empathy for other people in being a consultant because you are asking for a lot of money and you are asking for a lot of trust. And so, uh, when you put yourself in their position, it's like, well, if I was them, how would I feel about this? Well, I wouldn't feel too good, but I want to acknowledge that and make sure that we can all get on the same page and make sure it's something that can all work out.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. The, the phrase that you taught me recently, I liked, uh, what was that phrase, Dave? Oh, there's so many one-liners. I know there's a lot of one-liners. Me and Dave talk a lot. Yeah. Uh, this was, I think it was, uh, I don't want you to pay me too much, but I also don't want you to pay me too little.

Dave Young: it was, it was, um, well, this is when I have the discussions about fixed bid versus hourly and everybody, you know, everybody wants fixed bid cause then they can put a budget in the spreadsheet and they know what they're going to get for, for what, um, and so I say, well, if we don't have the requirements and we don't have the acceptance criteria, I don't think we really know what we're going to, where the end point is. And I, I don't want to overcharge you. And I definitely don't want to undercharge you.

Chris Gammell: That's the one. So, yeah, that's good.

Dave Young: So let's, uh, come find a way so we can get there.

Chris Gammell: That's a good one. Peter, if you had a client, fire any clients, you're just going to stay mum on this whole thing.

Dave Young: Oh, no.

Chris Gammell: You've only fired yourself. Are you firing a client?

Dave Young: Right now you're firing a client.

Chris Gammell: no, no. I'm not texting someone. Yeah, yeah. This is, this has been something I've been meaning to do for a while. So,

Peter: so no, I, I don't think I was in the position of no soup for you. Um, but, um, well, I definitely thought about it a few times that does happen. Oh, sure. And, um, and you are like, it's more of the thing. It's like, okay, we will finish this project and I will just, uh, not do another one with that person. It's not like firing. It's just basically saying, it's like, okay, this, this engagement, uh, is ending anyway. So let's not do another one.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah.

Peter: Um, and regarding the setting of expectations, that's, it's like, it couldn't be truer. Um, the problem is also that I've seen is, um, um, language barrier. It's like, for example, if you say, um, um, I should have it done by, uh, it doesn't mean it will be done by, it will, it means it should be done by that.

Chris Gammell: Speaking as an engineer versus speaking as a, as a management person, right? Is that kind of what you're talking about?

Peter: Yeah. And it's like, uh, this, this, this, I, I ran into that problem recently and it's like, uh, I, I still have to learn how to phrase things so that they're clearer to, uh, people that might not be in native speakers.

Dave Young: Yeah. I stopped using the word should all the time. And actually lately I've stopped accepting it. So, um, like when people will say, uh, I should be available tomorrow at three and I'll respond to the email and be like, okay, well let me know when you're ready to confirm that time.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That's good.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. But it's like, uh, I use should on purpose. If I know I will do a thing by, by a certain date, then I will tell you obviously. Um, but, uh, especially when you are depending on other, uh, people, it's like you order stuff, you order parts, you order PCBs, like, uh, anything can happen. And suddenly you can get the information. It's like, Oh, so by the way, we have Chinese, uh, uh, holidays now for two days. So, um, your thing will be delayed. Even if they, they might even not tell you that they have that. It just is not being shipped on time.

Chris Gammell: So that's fun. Again,

Peter: I'm falling back into the grumpy old man. It's fine.

Chris Gammell: I think that's kind of, I think the, you know, the grumpy consultant is grumpy for a reason, right? I mean, I have met other, I mean, you got to put a good face on either way, right? But it's, uh, you know, people that understand the state of the world and then also what they're usually asked for. Like that, that, that's a tough balance to strike. I think at least from,

Dave Young: I gotta tell you that, you know, I gotta tell you that, that the professional face that you put on, I so love that because thinking back when, when I worked at the, in the corporate environment, there'd be a lot of people that since you're seeing them, every day, all day, the, the personal issues would, uh,

Chris Gammell: Dave's talking about it. Would be hard to ignore. He's talking about it. Chris,

Dave Young: you remember when those two guys got into a fist fight over a project to Keith Lee?

Chris Gammell: I don't remember that.

Dave Young: Oh man. Two guys legitimately got like good friends. We used to play football together. We get beers, all that kind of, they legitimately got into a fist fight and like stuff like that happens. And what's nice is when you're a consultant, you can be like, I don't have to talk to you for a week. So I'm going to, I'm going to switch it all to email and then we'll be able to keep going. It's nice to be able to step back where in the corporate environment, it's not possible. You know, I loved hanging out with all the people that I worked with, but there were some times where different people would get on my nerves. It was like, Oh my God, I got to go tomorrow. I got to be in that eight o'clock meeting with them. And I'm just going to try not to say anything. I should. The perks of the virtual office. Yeah, exactly. It really lets, I think it makes, it's like the, the grease that lets the gears run. Um, it, it helps a lot.

Eric Thompson: It goes back to having that diversity too. Like, I feel like I get to meet a group of people that I do a project with for six months or whatever. And then I move on to another group. And so you don't, you don't have some of those like long-term issues. Yeah, the baggage. Right. Exactly.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I was talking to someone about a space projects the other day and just like, you know, some of those people are like, you see them like celebrating when the, you know, the thing lands on a asteroid or a planet or whatever the hell it is.

Peter: It's a good feeling when suddenly your thing is in space.

Chris Gammell: Oh, I'm sure. But I'm just saying that the timelines on those is 10 to 20 years. Right. And it's like, oh crap. Okay. It's a, it's a lot of the same stuff every day and it's a lot of the same people. So that's, that's fun.

Peter: Fortunately, the CubeSat stuff is becoming more prevalent and the timeframes are much shorter these days.

Chris Gammell: That's a good point. That's a good point. Okay. So speaking of timeframes, we are already 45 minutes in, holy crap. Oh, 50 minutes in. So I wanted to get to some of the Twitter questions. I had asked people on Twitter, about, uh, you know, the fact that we'd be talking here and, uh, some people had some questions here. Uh, I'm going to start with the one that was not a question, but, uh, it was just a phrase, imposter syndrome. Have you felt it? Do you feel it right now? And when you feel it in the future? Yeah. How do you deal with this? Probably the best question actually.

Speaker ?: Wow.

Eric Thompson: That's a hard question. So actually one thing that helped me is there's another consultant that is here locally that I have known for 20 years. And, um, he is really good at, um, I think selling himself, but also he sells me better than I sell myself. So, so talking to him sometimes and having him like be this, you know, person who's in a common kind of field, doing the same thing I'm doing has really helped me having that, that link. Cause he'll be like, Oh, you, you've done all these cool projects and you've done this and that, and you can do this new one. Like, so. Oh,

Chris Gammell: instead of you being like, well, I don't know if I could do that exact thing, that kind of thing. Yeah. I mean,

Peter: I friends, good friends are actually the, uh, the good source of, uh, correcting oneself, self-esteem. I think it's, it's like once that you trust that they have the technical knowledge and actually look up to is even better. You're like, okay, he's better than me. And if he says I'm doing okay, then it's hopefully really okay. Yeah. Very true. Yes.

Chris Gammell: So it's all about just the reference points and, and having some, some backing foundations on those kinds of things.

Dave Young: Yeah. I like to, I like to embrace it and I refer to it as known risks.

Chris Gammell: Known risks. Oh yeah. I'll just tell you, it's like,

Dave Young: it's like the, it's like the, uh, you know, the academic who has the future work section is like, these are the things that I was going to do that I didn't do. Uh, known risks is like, I realized that this is going to be a challenge and I'm not entirely sure how this is going to turn out.

Peter: So, uh, I just want to be upfront with it. And the important thing is you have to communicate it to the client and not be afraid of admitting. It's like, I have never done that before. I might fail. Are you okay with that? And if the client is a good client, they will be like, yeah, we will see how, where it goes. We will do that anyways.

Eric Thompson: Yeah.

Peter: And then you feel much easy, like it's easier on you than having to like fake it.

Eric Thompson: Yes. Right. Okay. Yeah. And I actually, I actually had a client twice now who we had that conversation where I said, I've never done, you know, this sort of thing before. And they, their response was, well, we can't find anybody else. So I guess. Yeah. That's the other thing. That's a good point. The overhead. Somebody,

Dave Young: if they can get somebody on, uh, what's that site? Elance or whatever it is. Um, if they, if it was that easy, then they just get somebody on Elance and pay them like 30 bucks an hour and it'd be done. Yep. But, uh, you know, nobody's going to engage any of us if it's easy.

Chris Gammell: That's totally true. Yeah. Yep. Okay. How about another question here? Um, Oh, here's an interesting one because again, it was not really a real question, but I think at the underlying thing, it makes sense when your startup client who suddenly gets funding is wooed and ultimately stolen by a bigger design firm promising the world. Dot, dot, dot. How does one manage one's anger? That's a great question by. I personally,

Dave Young: I personally go on a lot of runs.

Chris Gammell: Okay. I like to, I like mental health stuff. But I think the bigger question here is how do you deal with being the smaller, smaller fish in the pond, especially when there are, I mean, there's design firms out there that are the big, the big fish, right? You know, they're,

Dave Young: yeah, but that's not necessarily an asset to be like, so don't get me wrong. Sure. For some projects, big design firms are a hundred percent worth it. Like if it makes sense. And I've even been in a position where I've been on a project. I'm like, guys, we need like a legitimate design firm to get in on this because this is, you guys are starting from scratch on a big project. And like for me to do it. And then for me to refer other people in other disciplines to do it, um, given.

Chris Gammell: Okay. So you're saying like company comes to you and says, we want to build a, a Bluetooth widget encased in plastic that does a, a, B and C. And it has an app and it does this and this and this, and it has field tests or something.

Dave Young: Yeah. I'm, yeah, I might be able to get a project like that put together with a bunch of other people. But if there's like a significant project like that wheelchair project they did for Indigo, it was like, guys, I'm not going to get a team together to do this. It's going to be a ton of work on a ton of different people. So like it's an asset, but on the flip side, um, big design houses are not better than, than, uh, lone gunners for everything. Like I'm way more nimble and flexible and certainly less expensive. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point too. They might charge three times.

Chris Gammell: And the other thing is because they have overhead and everything else. Yeah.

Dave Young: And they're not going to iterate as, uh, as much or as BS, almost all of them won't be as flexible and they won't be as fast. And they won't be like, if somebody calls me at three o'clock on Friday, I'm like, Hey, um, I know you're trying to order that board on Monday. We need to change this, change that, change this, change. Like I can roll with that kind of stuff. Whereas, you know, if the project manager has gone home that day and the engineer is only there, he's going to be sitting there and be like, well, I don't know. I got to talk to the guy and we got to see about this. We may have a meeting. So, um, it, there's, there's pros and cons to everything. So I wouldn't feel if somebody wants to go to a big design house, I mean, if they've got the money and, uh, they think that's what they need more power to them,

Eric Thompson: but. I've actually worked through some of those design houses. Um, there's one in, in Portland that they're all purely mechanical. I didn't have any people who do electrical. So I've become kind of their go-to person to do smaller projects, um, and to help them out. So,

Dave Young: yeah. Yeah. And I, I've done that. I've done a little bit of that too. Uh, and that works great.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Young: That works great.

Chris Gammell: Okay. So this goods, this leads into another question that we should have probably talked about sooner, but how, how do you guys get your work? I mean, I, I guess we kind of covered a little bit of a lot of it comes through, uh, personal connections and stuff like that, but where are you, you know, when you are advertising yourselves or talking about yourselves or finding new points of contact like that, what, where, where are you normally getting work from?

Peter: Just direct contacts. I, as I said, it's like the stuff that comes through the internet is usually nothing anyways. Yeah. So you're saying,

Chris Gammell: you're saying that individuals, you're saying that already knew you. Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. Yeah. It's like the, it's mostly, it's like knowing at least one intermediary. It's like the 17 directions thing, but in this case, it's more like one or two at max. It's like, usually it's someone who knows my work already and they're like, Oh, this is something similar to what you, I saw you do.

Chris Gammell: Got it.

Peter: Would you be interested? Or you hang out with some people and they're like, Oh, you're interested in this stuff. Can you do that stuff? Oh, awesome. We were looking for someone to do this for a while.

Chris Gammell: Got it. Serendipity by proximity. Yes.

Eric Thompson: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Okay.

Eric Thompson: Yeah. All, all personal contacts. And then I've also found that, um, like distributor salespeople and FAEs, because they're, they're constantly going around talking to, um, to their clients. And so things come up about, you know, a certain FPGA or a certain part. And they're like, Oh, we know these people that have done that on previous projects that are consultants. Um, and they refer us or also, uh, contract manufacturers. I've gotten work through them because their clients are having boards built there and something goes wrong or part goes obsolete. And they, I've gotten references to, you know, fix those for their clients.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, I was going through old emails and, uh, Eric, I found one from you that said, Hey, you know, Ash Park gets, gets references and sometimes they pass stuff through. I've talked to other CMs that do that. Another one that, um, that I talked to was, uh, I think the mechanical stuff is good, but one that I talked to was, uh, shoot. What was it? I guess it was kind of like a CM as well. So yeah, another CM, like you guys mentioned. So, but just these focal points of like people that hear about things. Oh, investors were another one. Sorry. That was another big one. And I think Dave, you've dealt with that a couple of times.

Dave Young: Yeah. Yeah. I've, I've done that, but really the big, the big one for me is past clients. And my attitude is always, so I haven't had to do like spend a ton of time doing marketing stuff. Uh, for a few years now. And I always say like, if I'm doing something for a client that I maybe shouldn't do, or it's above and beyond or whatever, I, I refer to that as my marketing time. It's like, make your clients extremely happy. And then you don't have to bother with a website.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Oh, that's true. I think, so here's the reason that I, I wanted to bring this up too, though, is that, so a lot of people listening are thinking like, how can I get into it? You know, that, that is, I think the, the common question that I've gotten as I've started talking about this, at least people have been like, Oh, I've think, I'm thinking about getting into it. And so then they hear us say, well, past clients or investors or CMs. And it's like, Oh shit. Well, I don't have any of those things. So I guess the, the real question here is for people who are listening, how do they get into it? You know, where do they start that they get this stuff started?

Dave Young: Yeah. I suppose I had a, when I got into it, it was a bunch, I went to a bunch of meetups. Um, and then, and then like, like the other guys were saying is you, you're talking to people and make, Oh, you know how to do that. I know a guy that needs somebody that knows how to do that. Uh, and eventually you can get into this stuff, but going around and talking.

Eric Thompson: Okay. Well, I kind of fell into it backwards to tell you the truth. I, we had moved to a different city and I was looking for a job. Um, cause I've been doing, uh, more like contract work. And so I looking for a full-time job and this buddy of mine said, you know, I've been doing consulting and this company needs more help. Will you come help out? And that was my first contract, uh, thing there. And then from there I just kept going with it. So I think, I think if you know someone who's in that world, that's a great connection. Got it. Yeah, that's for sure.

Chris Gammell: Well, you know, Peter, you said that you didn't, uh, you don't get much from the internet, but I do wonder about like, you know, having projects online being a little bit visible. Uh, obviously Peter, your name's on a crap ton of, uh, uh, firmware files and stuff like that. And you have projects out there. So does that help at all or at least from an, uh, acknowledgement of, of your, your persona online or, or does that no matter?

Peter: Oh yeah, no, I, uh, it does help. Uh, it's just, uh, the feeling I have, especially for the stuff that I'm doing is like the more open source stuff, like, uh, firmware here, the files there, uh, the expectation of the people that were approaching me so far were just, uh, just crazy. They were like, Oh, this has to be.

Chris Gammell: of clients. Yeah.

Peter: Well, it's basically like, Oh, so because it is open source, so I can get it virtually for free. Right. Yeah, of course. It's like, no, Mike, they don't realize your time costs money. Um, yeah. Um, but, um, okay.

Chris Gammell: So you're saying the open source can get your name out there, but that might also attract a little bit more low quality leads than otherwise.

Peter: Yes. But also it's, there is also a flip side to it, which is the positive one is, showing your, uh, like what you can do. And, uh, for me, for example, when I'm trying to find people to work on projects, it, I, my like work requirement is like, so show me your poll requests on GitHub. Yeah. so I can judge how well we can work together. Right. Right. Um, so, so this is a very important, uh, in my opinion, it's like any college student should take their time to, uh, contribute to an open source project, because this is a very good way of applying. Like when you apply for a job, you can show this and show, I can do this. I can know how VCS works. I, my code is not super ugly and, uh, I can work with other people and, um, make a poll request and discuss it. Uh, and, uh,

Chris Gammell: that makes, that makes sense. And I think that's good. That's good advice regardless, you know, you know, like you're saying for regular employment as well.

Peter: And then, and then hackerspaces like going there and meeting people that are in the tech industry. It's like, for example, if you are Portland area, go to Dorkbot, uh, Dorkbot PDX. There's so many engineers there. It's like, I know several of my friends are continuously in rotation with different consulting jobs because they know each other. They meet each other, they hang out with each other and they recommend each other to their clients.

Chris Gammell: Yep. Yep. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. And, um, you know, so interesting one is actually, uh, someone here, Jose, who's in town here. He actually did start an up work, which I was really surprised at when I talked about him about it. Uh, but then he kind of kept parlaying that into new stuff. He also does Kiket stuff. So, um, I'll probably talk to him about it at some point, but you know, like there, there are a lot of ways. I think having work out there is easier when you, so like, like we always say on the show, um, if you show up at a meetup with something in your hand, that's going to be a lot easier to talk to people about it, especially if you're not super outgoing. Uh, and then, so that also, you know, it means like work on projects on your own, show up at meetups or just try and get to know people otherwise and hackerspaces, whatever. And then, um, and then maybe even put, I mean, I don't know how much you guys, how much do you state that you're available for work? Is that something that you do? I reach out and say, do you like, do you, do you reach out to people and say, Hey, I'm, you know, I'm kind of in searching mode right now, or do you do anything like that?

Eric Thompson: Last year was pretty slow for me. And I spent, I spent a lot of time reaching out to past clients, to contacts, people I knew just saying, Hey, you know, I've got some spare time right now. Um, and I did a lot of that. So I didn't work out. Um, eventually it got me something, but it took a lot more than I expected. Yeah. And I don't know if it was just my network last year was just, you know, slower or, or what? Right.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. I mean, I guess it depends on, you know, who, you know, like, especially if you're saying that it is mostly local versus remote, that kind of thing, like where you build your network online or offline, that kind of stuff. What about from other, I guess, Dave, you can answer this one. What about from other clients or other consultants rather?

Dave Young: What do you mean?

Chris Gammell: Does anyone ever give you work?

Dave Young: Oh yeah. As another consultant. There's a, yeah. Right. Chris, you kick me work all the time.

Chris Gammell: Um, I always joke about that, but Dave gets money, much of his own work. I just, I, I always like to,

Dave Young: it's nice to have, nice to have Chris to talk to and say like, Oh yeah, I got some time. Yeah. I, I don't know if, um, I, I, so I'm always available to talk about projects. And the reason is, you know, a project might take six months to get started and that might take six days to get started. Yeah. Um, and so, so if they're in a rush, that's one of my first questions, like, okay, what's your timeline look like? And they're like, well, we're in the early stages. We're trying to do all this, that, and the other. Um, then I know that what I can talk to him. If I'm busy as busy can be, I can at least talk to him. And maybe if I'm too busy, I might be able to pass them on to somebody else that I know, or I might be able to connect them down the line or help them somehow. But, um, the only time I'll say like, no, I'm really toast is when I'm actually toast and they're looking to have something done in like the next month or two.

Chris Gammell: That makes sense. Yeah, it's tough. I mean, like I've been on a couple of email chains as well where like, uh, I didn't, I didn't know how to do the thing they were at. They're like, Oh, we need an FPJ expert. I'm like, Oh, I don't know, you know, or they need this, that, or the other thing of firmware, super, you know, super in depth firmware architect. Nope. Sorry. So,

Dave Young: yeah. But the reality is like you and I would be far better at helping them find somebody than they would be on their own. So,

Chris Gammell: right.

Dave Young: Uh, it's always nice to, to help people out and connect them where you can.

Chris Gammell: Are there any resources that you guys know about that connect, um, consultants together? I've not seen any,

Eric Thompson: that would be great.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I may have been low level thinking about something like this. So, okay. All right. I'll say, it would be great. We got three users so far.

Peter: For, for example, there's like my, uh, my current client, they are like looking for additional hands to, and I'm having trouble finding someone qualified. So,

Eric Thompson: yeah. And not only that, but being able to cross over to other disciplines too. I mean, I have a mechanical person that I've worked with that I, I think is great. And, you know, trying to make those connections would be fantastic.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Okay. Let's get some more Twitter questions in here. Uh, let's see. So that kind of covered how to get new clients. What about like insurance and, uh, kind of covering your, your butt, uh, for, you know, if you make a product or make a thing that, uh, blows up or bad. Do you guys carry insurance? Silence. All right. I guess I'm not buying insurance anytime soon. Okay. I mean, I guess, I guess a good question for you because I mean, you, you manufacture products. I mean, as a manufacturer, do you carry insurance or no?

Dave Young: Uh, no. So here's the thing is I, so I've gone down the insurance road. Um, and the problem is nobody will cover you for mystery product, for mystery amount of time, right? Mystery complexity.

Chris Gammell: Right.

Dave Young: So like if they, if you tell them like, yeah, I'm an engineer and today I can design a clock and tomorrow I could design a wheelchair. They're like, okay, so here's what you're going to do. You're going to get your clock client to ensure their clock. You're going to get your wheelchair client to ensure their wheelchair, which they're going to have to do if they're going to sell it or they're going to, they're going to get it into big box stores or on Amazon or whatever. So, um, that's kind of the road that I went down with the insurance is like, um, you can get insurance and like, so that's why I was kind of silent is I didn't want to talk about specific insurance policies because there's not insurance for like a design engineer who's designing mystery stuff. There is. So like you can get professional liability insurance and then that covers all your normal stuff. Like if you have a client over your lab and they shock themselves, or if you have an employee or a subcontractor over to your lab and they do something they shouldn't do, or they break their skull or whatever, then they cover you. But if, if you have released a design that's bad, um, it's really hard to get,

Speaker ?: uh,

Dave Young: protection from that because the insurance company doesn't know what they're protecting.

Peter: Got it. So that, that is interesting. But, um, I, we, in my previous like work life, I, we did make, get a liability insurance for a product, but it is just for the final product. Right. Where you described in very minute detail, which situations, this is the hard part about those insurances. It's like, you have to sit with the person from the insurance and go through all the liability possibilities and imagine anything that could happen so that they can give you a quote, how much they want you to pay. And, uh, that, that was my experience with insurance. So I also, I try to avoid, uh, like,

Speaker ?: uh,

Peter: quote unquote, final products. Um, it's basically all that I do. I try to, well, I don't try. It is just by, by, by what it is. It's mostly bare PCBs, which are components or parts of a bigger thing. And so, uh, these are not, uh, molded plastic finished things that I would be able to even easily get an insurance liability insurance for.

Eric Thompson: Do you guys have your businesses? I'm in my case, I have an LLC, um, to kind of separate that. Do you guys have a, like a corporation or how do you handle that?

Peter: Yeah, I'm LLC. Yeah.

Eric Thompson: LLC in my case. Okay. Me too.

Peter: And this is, this was like, yeah, glad you mentioned that this was specifically thought like, oh, it has to be an LLC to create this barrier financially at least.

Chris Gammell: Right. And that also requires the, I think me and Dave have talked about this a couple of times, but like the, it's about having like good corporate practices. So you're not like intermingling funds or doing anything stupid on the accounting side, because then if they do come after you, they, and they prove that you've been kind of fast and loose with your, your money or your jobs or whatever, whatever it is. And then they say, oh, by the way, your house, you actually weren't a corporation the whole time. And your house is also liable.

Peter: Yeah. Right. But I have friends.

Dave Young: There are some good resources for trying to figure out liability insurance and stuff like that with IEEE. So if you're a member of IEEE, they do a bunch of stuff to help you out with understanding all this stuff and what you want to do. So if you're looking, if people are looking at getting into consulting, that would be a great place to start. So you understand where your risks are and what you want to do.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That was interesting too, Dave, because you had mentioned that they have a salary survey, which I, I actually did not. I've never, it's like a purchase thing. You can buy it for like 30 bucks or something.

Dave Young: Consultant fee survey. Well, it's just a consultant survey. So you get to talk about how many hours you're billing, how much you're charging, stuff like that.

Chris Gammell: But it seemed like it was pretty skewed towards the, the Uber pro kind of like California based consultant type thing. What?

Dave Young: Yeah. I don't, I don't know about that. So yeah, we were talking, I think the average is like 160 an hour or something. And, um, you know, most of them have been working for like 10 years or something like that. I don't know, something like that, but, um, it is helpful if you want to get a glimpse into what it might look for you, uh, getting into the game, that would be a great place to start. Uh, so you can figure out, okay, how much should I, how much time should I be looking to spend? How much, uh, should I charge? What should my contracts look like? Whatever.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. But it's, uh, I'm not sure if this, like if your clients are here, make a shield for my Arduino thing. Right. That's not the type of client that can, uh, like pay $160 an hour. Sure. Yeah. And that, you know,

Dave Young: they're engineers putting this together. So they show you the distribution. They give you the mean, the median, the max, the upper decile, all that kind of stuff.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. This is actually another tweet that came through as well. Uh, where was this one? Uh, so labspoken on Twitter asked, what I really want to know is why do engineers feel they must undercharge as time for time as a consultant? No one should be blanching at a hundred plus dollars an hour. Um, I agree with that sentiment. And then I believe, uh, um, someone else had mentioned that doing like pro bono type stuff, but, but just generally like our, our wise, I mean like, what is the psychology behind charging hours? You kind of covered it a little bit already because of the, um, variability, but like the, the hourly rates and things like that, you know, Dave said one 16 hour. Some people probably heard that and said, Holy crap. And some people said, that's all right. So like, yeah, what is the psychology behind all this stuff to you guys?

Eric Thompson: Um, I've, I found it just, it's varied by client and you really have to figure out, like I said, like those ones where I'm doing 20 hours a week, I'm charging them a lot less than I am a client that says, you know, we want 10 hours and you need to use Altium and your own oscilloscope, you know? Um, so part of it is kind of what the business arrangement is. Um, and then part of it is sometimes you need to get work and I've, I've lowered my rate just to get that particular job. So, you know,

Dave Young: the other big thing that I use as a knob is, um, allocating who holds the risk. So, uh, if something I'm particularly sensitive of is if a client wants, um, this one thing and they want, like, they want me to figure it out and be like, I don't know how you're going to do it. You don't know how you're going to do it, but you got to figure it out and do whatever it takes. Um, if I'm taking on more risk than I, there needs to be that upside. I, to counteract the potential downside of me sitting there beating my head against it for a couple of weeks. Um, meanwhile, if a client's like on an hourly agreement or whatever, and they're like, okay, kind of run with a leash that's kind of long, then I may be more in tune with, with, uh, a lower rate. So, um, I always want to be mindful of making sure that I'm not getting in a situation where I've been working for a million hours and I'm no longer getting paid. And, um, I haven't taken the risk into account.

Chris Gammell: I think that, I mean, so personally, I mean, like coming into this, like I could do, I can do the math on my last salary and I could do like the 1.3 X billing, you know, like you take your, I just read a couple of things about it, you know, like how you can figure out your rate and, and all of it felt bad, you know, it, all of it felt like, Oh crap, no one will pay me that much. You know what I mean? Like I still feel that that's imposter syndrome right there. Right. But like, there you go. Yep. But it's, um, but I think it's, it's tough and I'm sure that, you know, rates change over the years too. So like there's also that, um, so maybe it's okay to take more. I think, uh, one of the guys in my workspace talks about like, just taking more at the beginning and then figuring out if you're, and I think it's in this, one of these documents too. It's like, if you have more work than you can handle, it's time to have your rates, that kind of thing. I think that's a, you know,

Peter: but it's also what you are working on. Right. It's, uh, for example, if, because I care for this whole open source stuff for some reason, haha, I, I, I, if this work is the, the client is like, okay, well we can open source this or contribute it to the project. I'm much more willing to give them a better price. Sure. Sure. Then, uh, it's like, Oh no, it is all ours and you will not be allowed to work on the same thing for the next 10 years. I usually will say no to such an arrangement anyways,

Chris Gammell: but what about, uh, Oh, you guys knew this question was coming up. what about when they promise you equity?

Peter: No, justice, card no,

Chris Gammell: flat no. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Young: You know, I've been, I've been thinking about it more and more, but, um, it, like these guys, it doesn't quite fit with my current. I got two young kids are in daycare and stuff. I don't know. Cash. Daycare won't accept equity. Yeah. Payment. Well, I think it's equity.

Eric Thompson: Part of the problem for me is that you're getting equity in something that you, at least the offers I've been, I've been given is a little bit of equity and something I have no control over. So you're asking me to trade my time that I could be using for, in my case, you know, other clients or for my own projects, right. Um, for something that, that I don't have a huge stake in.

Chris Gammell: You're saying because, because the business stuff is so important to that or what?

Eric Thompson: The, the business. Well, it's, it's more of a, like, what is this person going to do with this business? Like I can't sell help set the direction. So, so if I have a little bit of stake in this business and they take a direction that I don't think is going to be successful, then what's that stake worth to me? Like it's, so.

Dave Young: Yeah. You're just along for the ride.

Eric Thompson: Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. I also personally, it's like, uh, if I want equity, I will just work on my own stuff. Right. Right. That's true. That's how I feel about it. And it's like, I've, I've also been in, enough startups to develop a quite bad taste for equity payments where it's like, yeah, if you are, if you don't have enough funding to actually take this thing off the ground, then you will give people equity. That's just my bad experiences cost that feeling.

Dave Young: The other thing is it totally changes the, the negotiation and the relationship. So now I'm not just a consultant, I'm a consultant and an investor. And so, you know, do you really want that muddying the waters? And then on top of that, you know, every founder of a company ever overvalues their company. And so you're like, that's just the nature of it. If they didn't think it was an amazing idea, they wouldn't be doing it. Uh, and so when you're trying to sit there, unless there's already evaluation set by like a VC or whatever, um, it's really hard to figure out like, okay, what should these shares be worth?

Chris Gammell: Hmm.

Dave Young: And you don't want to be having that negotiation.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. Well, they gave me 10,000. So that sounds like a lot. Yeah. 10,000. There's only one going to share outstanding.

Chris Gammell: you know, Oh boy. Yeah. That's, I mean, so, I mean, I've already dealt with this a little bit, but not much. And, um, you know, I've been in some startups as well. And so it's, uh, it seems like a crapshoot regardless. So like, so as any, as any of it been positive in that regard or no,

Peter: I have not made any money from equity. I have equity. I have worthless companies. Okay. I know people that made money with equity. That's pretty much it. Okay.

Chris Gammell: So it's like a, it's like a fireside story that you tell. It's like Bitcoin. I know someone who made money with Bitcoin.

Peter: Yeah. It's like, I wish I got Bitcoin when I heard about it for the first time. Right.

Chris Gammell: Doesn't do shit for you now though. Yep. Yeah. Well, speaking of, uh, cash and stuff like that too, because that another question I had was just about reserves. You don't have to tell me about cash, you know, dollars you have in the bank, but like, do you guys have rules for yourselves about like having reserves on hand or like cash in the bank for rainy days, stuff like that?

Dave Young: You know, it's not for rainy days. It's for my mental sanity. If I, if I don't have cash sitting around, I would be so concerned with money that I wouldn't be as effective at working.

Chris Gammell: So like, just because of the ups and downs of billing. Yeah. You know, well,

Dave Young: I've already accepted the fact that I have no control over projects. Uh, it, it helps to know that I've got cash behind it, but even apart, like even apart from working as a consultant, I mean, Chris, you and I were working at Keithley through the whole downturn of the financial crisis. Like you can show up the next day and your job's gone. Yeah. They cut out that whole division. It was, it was concerning when engineers better than I was.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Young: We're, we're getting fired just because they were in a different division than I was. It's like, man, I need more money in the bank.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean, I think that that's a, that's a tiny scar on our psyches regardless. Right. I don't know. I think a lot of people, right. Some people had it way worse than we did. Um, yeah. Right. We kept our jobs. It wasn't bad at all. It wasn't great, but yeah, it wasn't, it wasn't as bad as it could have been. Um, and, uh, yeah, I think that, so some of that stuff affects people and, you know, who are working still. Um, but just more generally, I mean, like you guys keep like, do you say to yourselves, I want to have six to 12 months in the bank or anything like that? I guess, again, thinking about people who are listening, what they would want to have before they got started.

Eric Thompson: I think, I think usually I try to say a 12 months. Um, and actually you were asking about if someone's to get into consulting, I think one of the first steps is to get your personal finance stuff in order. Um, I know for, for me, um, my wife is really good at that and, and having, you know, not having a bunch of extra money, extra debt and, and things to deal with. It really helps with those rough times. Um, so I think if you're going to get into consulting, you know, if you have a lot of extra things floating around, take care of that stuff first. And got it. Yep. Yep.

Dave Young: But it's going to change for your situation. Like when I get into consulting, I had a big whack of cash, but, um, I kind of need it cause I was solo. Now I've got a wife, she has a full-time job. So if I, you know, if I don't have another job for the next 12 months, we'd still eat, we'd still pay our mortgage. You know, all that stuff happens. Um, whereas when I was solo, it would be like, Oh my God, I don't want to move back in with my parents.

Chris Gammell: So you're saying, yeah, you're, uh, your ability to find a mate was your, was your, your best resource, huh?

Dave Young: You know what? My ability to find a mate was probably the best resource the whole life. Yes.

Chris Gammell: I've met your wife and I agree with that. Yeah.

Peter: I, I definitely started with barely any money in the bank account. It was, Oh, I moved here. I have a, like, like a month or two enough money, or actually it was more, how much money do I have so that I can buy some, uh, PCBs and boards so I can start selling them. Man, I admire you. That's awesome. Yeah. That's a pretty,

Chris Gammell: pretty raw approach there. Yeah.

Peter: Yeah. But, but I, I knew my situation was very specific. It was like, well, if everything fails, I will, I have to have enough money to buy a plane ticket back to Germany. And that's, that was pretty much it. And, uh, then hopefully Siemens or someone will want to hire me. And that is still today. It's actually still the way I try to think about this. That's why I was saying, Oh, I went through like some, um, interviews a few years ago where I was like, Oh, let's see if a bigger company would even want to hire me. And it's like, okay, they seem to be okay with hiring me again. And it's like, that's, that's keeps me my sanity. I see. Oh, if everything falls apart, yeah, I will still have a job that I can fall back to. And that gives me enough, like mental stability so I can continue doing what I actually love. And I have control over pretty much.

Dave Young: That's what it really comes down to is, is how much do you personally need for your situation? Because different people have different numbers. Like I could never done what Peter did and, uh, he made a go. So, uh, you really just got to figure that out for yourself. Put yourself in the worst case scenario and see how you'd feel.

Eric Thompson: Yeah, that's true. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Well guys, uh, this has been a really good conversation. I think, I mean, I, I'm definitely gonna bring this up again on the amp hour. So people don't have to worry about that. Um, you know, have you guys back on, have other consultants back on. I think it's, you know, obviously it's something that the nice thing about being me is I get to, uh, pick out who, what we talk about and that's, that's great. But, uh, you know, I really appreciate you guys, you know, giving me, I, I would have asked you these questions regardless in person or, or, you know, over, over chat or whatever. So I think it's nice that you were willing to do this on air. Uh, it really, it really helps a lot.

Peter: Thank you for inviting. Yes. Thank you. Where can,

Chris Gammell: where can people, where can people find you if they're looking for a consultant and, uh, and they want to hire, they want to hire you.

Peter: Okay. Uh, one bit squared, and just look up one bit squared.com. And, uh, there is a contact form. You can send me a message over there or just P I O T R at one bit squared.com.

Chris Gammell: And Peter will also have a, uh, a project coming out. We'll be talking about on here soon. So we'll talk about that soon. Oh,

Eric Thompson: yay. It will be fun. Eric,

Chris Gammell: what about you?

Eric Thompson: Uh, low voltage labs.com. There's a contact form there or on Twitter. Also low voltage labs.

Dave Young: Yeah. And you can get me at young circuit designs.com or Dave at young circuit designs.com.

Chris Gammell: Awesome guys. Well, thank you for, uh, thanks for, thanks for participating tonight and, uh, we'll talk to you soon.

Peter: It was great. Thanks. Uh,

Speaker ?: Thank you.