#405 – An Interview with Spencer Wright

Chris Gammell: This is The Amp Hour Podcast. Release September 3rd, 2018. Episode 405. An interview with Spencer Wright. Welcome to the Amp Hour. I'm Chris Gammell of Contextual Electronics.

Spencer Wright: And I am Spencer Wright of theprepared.org and other fine things.

Chris Gammell: I have introduced, or I have told people about you. I say you're the Roman Mars of manufacturing. How do you like that? Oh, wow. Yeah. I feel like that's a really high bar, man. Roman is, yeah. That's a high bar, but I think you're missing, I'm mostly talking about like when you introduce, welcome to the prepared. It's like, it's very like, like, like you're whispering, you're whispering to someone in like a church.

Spencer Wright: Yeah, yeah, yeah, totally. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Of course, you do not sound like that right now because, well, at least to me, because we're going through a bit of audio woes as I move and furiously dig through all my stuff. And right now we're, you know, we got some audio issues today, but we fought through it and I appreciate you taking the time to be here.

Spencer Wright: Definitely. Happy to be on. Happy to be talking. We actually never talked before.

Chris Gammell: I know, right? We immediately bonded over, over crappy audio. So. Yes. So, so people don't know, what is, what is the prepared?

Spencer Wright: So the prepared is, it's mostly a newsletter. It's been a newsletter for four and a half years, almost five years now, which is kind of, yeah, at least ostensibly it is about manufacturing. I think really the prepared is about, you know, things that are a degree of separation away from engineering. And with a focus on engineering kind of important ish problems in the physical world. Uh, so, uh, yeah, right. A lot about manufacturing, but also about, you know, logistics and transit and, uh, kind of whatever else suits my fancy. Um, but yeah, so it, it's an email newsletter, uh, that goes out weekly. Um, and it also, uh, to a somewhat lesser extent is a podcast, um, where like, like you do, I talk to people who are interesting and doing cool stuff about the kind of hard problems they're working on. So, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. No, I really like it. And you've had a lot of good guests on there. Um, I've cursed you a couple of times, uh, as I listen, I'm like, oh man, that's a good guest.

Spencer Wright: Well, I'll say you, your back catalog. I mean, I've, I've got whatever, like 18 episodes under my belt or something like that. And you're on 400 and what now? Um, so this is four or five.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So, uh, you know, so I, I tell people about the, the, the, uh, newsletter a lot too. And I think it's, uh, it's a good, you know, I was, I was actually talking to some people about, about the newsletter the other day. And it's, you know, in an age where a lot of newsletters, well, uh, magazines have disappeared. Right. So like, you know, I, I, when I got my career started, I was reading EDN and E times and those have, I mean, they're still around, but they're, they're very different in, uh, in a lot of times. A lot of ways, mostly that they're owned by big distributors now. And they have, you know, it's all contributed content and it's very, uh, it's not my favorite thing. I'll just say that. And, and so it's just, you know, so when younger engineers asked me like, well, how do I, how do I keep up in the industry? It's like, for a long time, I was like, I don't know, like read Twitter, like that. Going to trade shows. Yeah. So like having aggregation sources, like, like the, a newsletter like that is actually really important. I think.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. You know, like I said, I started it four and a half years ago. At the time I was, I was kind of on an anti email kick. Um, at least to some extent. I mean, I, I think I've changed my mind about that a lot, uh, in the intervening years. Um, but back then I was kind of like, you know, email is dead. Like we're going to be like, it's this protocol that's decades old and it's, you know, you're always underwater and so on and so forth. Um, but now I, I really do appreciate email for what it's good for, which is, you know, it's, it's totally ubiquitous and it's somehow personal. Like you can, um, I don't know. I, I open emails and I mean, obviously there are exceptions to this, but I find that it, it, it does kind of feel like someone's talking to me. Um, which is how I have structured the prepared as well. I mean, I, um, it's very much written in my voice or I, I have a handful of guest editors as well. And I, I definitely encourage them to use, you know, the, the personality of the medium to its fullest extent. So.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I like that. I like that. And I do like that you have a guest editors too. Um, you know, it's, uh, it's, you know, cause they bring in different, you know, the things that you care about, the things that they care about. It's like different, different, uh, sectors and things like that.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. I find it absolutely critical. It's, I mean, it's, it's partly just for me to get a vacation. I've been doing this, uh, yeah, I've done every single Monday for, you know, a number of years. It's a lot of work. Um, and I didn't know that getting into it. Um, but you kind of, I mean, as you know, I'm sure as well, like you kind of lock yourself into this pattern and then you kind of expect it of yourself. So.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Right. I mean, I'm guessing when it's like news based stuff, you can't really buffer it out by a couple of weeks. It's like, here's what's going to happen in four weeks.

Spencer Wright: No, you can't. But I also, I think that, you know, I accept that the email goes out on a Monday. And so if something is not going to be interesting because it's three days old, then I probably shouldn't include it. You know?

Chris Gammell: Uh, that's a good point. Yep. Yep. Cool. I'm guessing you have a lot of secret sources as well.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. That's actually the most amazing. Yeah. I mean, people like when you do something over and over and over again, all of a sudden people start telling you things. And, uh, you know, it was probably a year and a half ago, two years ago when I first was offered a press pass to go to something. And I'm just kind of like, like, whoa, like that was not what I intended to get into. Um, and I still, you know, I'm kind of ambivalent about that. Like, um.

Chris Gammell: No way, man.

Spencer Wright: Use it.

Chris Gammell: That's how I'm going to IMTS next week.

Spencer Wright: I'm, I'm, I'm going as well. Yeah. Um, and yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: I guess we can hang out there or something. I didn't even know you're going to be there. Hopefully. That's great.

Spencer Wright: I'm only there for a single day, unfortunately. But, um, but yeah.

Chris Gammell: Okay.

Spencer Wright: Cool. Cool.

Chris Gammell: Well, we'll be having a couple, uh, meetups around there. Uh, I think I've mentioned on the show, past guest John Saunders will be there on Sunday. And then Tuesday night, there is a bolt meetup, um, at a local brewery. And then I'll be walking around on Wednesday, at least on the IMTS floor. So, yeah. Um, cool. Well, that's great. Um, what is, I mean, so what is your background? What is, how did you get into, uh, not just, not just the newsletter, but like, what, what about the, uh, just manufacturing stuff?

Spencer Wright: Yeah. My, yeah. My oeuvre. Um, so.

Chris Gammell: I didn't say oeuvre. You said oeuvre.

Spencer Wright: I really liked that word actually. Uh, so I am, I'm kind of a, an ersatz engineer. I'm a fake engineer. I, uh, studied linguistics in college with a focus in English syntax.

Chris Gammell: I could have guessed that with the, the oeuvre, you know? Yeah. And ersatz as well. Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: Exactly. $5 words. Yeah. Yep. Um, but I grew up in construction. I grew up in the East end of Long Island, um, in the Hamptons. And so, uh, you know, everybody that I grew up with, their, their parents were in the service industry and somehow in some way. And my dad's a contractor. So I grew up swatting nails on, on job sites. Um, and after college, I spent a couple of years doing construction management. Um, I, which was, yeah, I, you know, kind of my first experience with actually managing people and, you know, executing a relatively large project over a long period of time. Um, which was awesome. Um, and also the way that you deal with subcontractors in the construction industry is, I think it's, um, it has problems. And there, I think there are also issues with the architect contractor relationship, which, um, at least I found to be contentious in some ways. And there's kind of a natural tension there that some people, there, there are positive aspects of that, but it wasn't what I wanted at the time. Um, and so after doing that for a couple of years, I hung out on my own shingle and started a company making, uh, high-end custom bicycle frames. So I had a little machine shop and welding shop. Um, and you know, you buy, I was using mostly steel, uh, and you buy tubing and you cut it and then you weld it together and then you get it painted and then, you know, build a, this, um, custom and very expensive product for a discerning customer. Yeah. Right. The, the custom bike industry. I mean, like I had a really hard time competing under like $2,000, um, for a bike, which is, you know, it's a really small amount of the market. Um, and yeah, it was super interesting, uh, experience. I did that full time for about three years, uh, before I got an opportunity to sell most of my shop and join a company that was, uh, building high-end windows and doors. Um, which is actually strangely how I first came across you. So I, I joined this company that was really good at traditional windows and doors. Um, their primary material is mahogany and they're very good at making really expensive windows for the Hamptons, Martha's Vineyard, Park Ave.

Chris Gammell: Um, so this is how you came across me with my mahogany experience.

Spencer Wright: Well, no, it's more, it's, it's, it's a cutest, uh, route. Uh, so the, this company had signed a contract to build these robot doors for a billionaire in the Hamptons. And I, yeah, so, so I was hired kind of as a machinist, uh, but then ended up doing most of the mechanical design for this, these robotic assemblies. There are a hundred doors, each of which weighed about 2000 pounds, um, and had a couple of DC gear motors on in, uh, on board as well as a fully custom, uh, single chip computer. Um, we, when we started out or when I started there, the plan was to like literally use Arduino for everything, which like Arduino and Zigbee, you would have had a hundred little, uh, XP modules around this thing chirping at each other.

Chris Gammell: Um, and in addition, so it would have been, uh, would have been fun times or other interference

Spencer Wright: events. Yep, exactly. So we were kind of continuing on that path. Um, and we, we knew at some point that we were going to need some, some audio design for these doors. You need to have kind of cues to tell you when they were locked, when they were unlocked. And so I hired my childhood friend, Zach Dunham, previous guest on the amp hour to do some audio design for us. Um, which he did made an unlock sound and a lock sound and so on and so forth. And then we kind of got deeper. It was like, all right, well, Zach, can you help us spec a speaker? And then can you help us spec an amp? And he was like, Hey, you know what? I'm getting over my head. Um, but my friend Todd Bailey, uh, probably could do this. And so I ended up hiring Todd who you had on the show many years ago, right?

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. Todd actually, I knew from, uh, he grew up in Cleveland where I used to live. Yep. And so we would hang out. I mean, I'd followed his work online, but yeah, uh, he grew up around me and so we'd hang out on Thanksgiving and whenever he was home.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. So Todd, uh, I mean, he was a contractor for us for, uh, for a while. Um, and he was full time on this project for a long time. And, um, it was a, it was a really interesting experience for me. I mean, I am not an embedded engineer. I'm not a mechanical engineer, but I'm definitely not an embedded engineer and managing Todd was, I mean, it was awesome. Like Todd, Todd, Todd's great. Uh, and he's a, he was a much better engineer than I was at least then, or just like, just kind of thinking through problems has the way that he thought about requirements, um, was significantly more advanced than the way I was thinking about it. Um, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Well, I, I just, I was not, not, yeah, he's better than you. Thinking about it. I was just thinking about like him as a good engineer, uh, since, since he, uh, since he's been on the show, he has went on to work on subs and then rockets. That's right. Yes. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: So that's kind of, yeah, he's, he's, he's good at, and he's also like a, he's like a comp lit major or something like that. Exactly. Yep. Yep. Yep.

Chris Gammell: Um, yeah. Those English majors, you gotta watch out for them. They're, they're coming for, they're coming for everyone.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. So I, so I did that for about two years. Um, I was living on the East end of Long Island the whole time. Um, and at a certain point I, for mostly personal reasons, uh, decided to move into New York, um, into the city, which is where I live now, um, left that job. Uh, but before that happened, I had actually, again, Zach, my, my, my good friend and now co-founder in another business, um, had said, Hey, you know, the MIT is offering an online circuits electronics course. Um, would you be interested in taking it? And I was like, yeah, that'd be amazing because everything, every like third word Todd says, I just, I don't know what he's talking about. And so Zach and I, and then Todd as well took the MIT six double O two X course, I guess it's now under the edX brand or whatever. Yeah. Um, but we took it together. It was super interesting, not applied at all. Like it was all calculus, which was actually not that useful in a lot of ways.

Chris Gammell: Um, I remember who did I talk to about that? Uh, I think Tom Anderson, one of the guys who used to work at like key site or still works I rather, I think he took it as well, him or someone else, maybe Philip Frieden, who's been on the show. It was someone who I hung out with that in California a lot who was like a very experienced engineer and they also did it and they're like, yeah, I'm spending 20 hours a week on this thing. And they were like, you know, in the industry for many, many years. And it's like, yeah, it is that, that joke, that, that, that class is no joke. I mean, it's a math heavy course and it's good, but it's not directly applicable. I hadn't taken calculus.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't taken calculus since high school. It was, it was really hard and it was super helpful to have other people who are going through it with me. Um, but we ended up coming out of it. Um, and around the time that the class ended, I moved into the city and quit my job and then was like hanging out with Zach one day and he, it was like getting towards Christmas time and he was like, I want to make something for my mom for Christmas. She listens to the radio. Zach has an audio background as if it's not obvious. And he was like, I'm going to make an FM radio for her. And she only ever listens to NPR. So I'm just going to tune into NPR and then lock it there. And I was like, that's a great idea. It would be fun to do some mechanical design for a radio. Cause I had no experience with consumer electronics at all. Um, and I mean, that would have been like 2013. And, uh, so we're, yeah, we're obviously recording remotely. Uh, I'm like, I'm sitting right now in like at the public radios, uh, which is this product, uh, manufacturing or auxiliary manufacturing line right now. Um, we've shipped, uh, about 5,000 units, uh, of this over the past couple of years. Um, a lot of them out of New York. Um, although, uh, we have a contract manufacturer called Worthington Assembly, which is primarily a PCBA shop that does, um, most of our, or all of our web and retail orders, um, in Massachusetts.

Chris Gammell: Um, yeah, they're up in Western Mass, right?

Spencer Wright: Uh, yeah, yeah. Um, so, so yeah, that, that has been a super interesting side project for me for a couple of years now. And if you know, my, like my interest in it, it's, it's just really weird product. I mean, it's a, it's an FM radio that only tunes to one station. And so we, we pre-program all the FM frequency, the frequency offset and de-emphasis, which is like all you need to know to, to tune an FM radio. We tune it, um, into, we have a little AT tiny on board. Um, and we do that programming after the order is placed. So an order is placed, it's brought into our system. Um, and then a partially assembled unit is taken off the shelf the next morning. Um, it is programmed. We do a full functional test. We actually transmit a test tone over that FM frequency and pick it up on the radio to confirm that audio comes through and everything. Um, and then we do final assembly, um, box build and fulfillment all in Massachusetts, uh, just in time. So we have this like really weird product where, you know, it's a piece of consumer electronics typically made in the tens of thousands in Shenzhen and then shipped over here. Instead, we're actually assembling them just in time in the U S and, uh, it's been a really interesting like manufacturing problem. Um, I mean, uh, my role has swung wildly as you might imagine with a, like Kickstarter project that then ended up becoming a little business. Um, but the manufacturing problems have been super interesting because we're doing something that's like not really done anywhere else. Um, and building these little systems that, uh, yeah, that, that work. So.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's great. Um, so, so this then spun out into, I mean, was this the, the genesis from you kind of getting into the manufacturing side of things or was that prior to, to, to, well, I, so the robot

Spencer Wright: door job. Um, yeah, there, like that was my first experience doing any kind of, yeah, what would look like engineering or, um, procurement. So, like I said, this company was really good at wood and glass. Um, but they had no, they had no, you know, uh, like metal CNC suppliers. They had, they had an extruder, but it was a pretty limited relationship. Um, and they hadn't ever procured any kind of, um, yeah, PCBA and, um, motion control stuff. Like that was all total, yeah, foreign world to them. And so my job was to design these things. We tested them internally. We had a little machine shop, um, uh, manual and CNC. Um, and then I would like go out and find sources and suppliers for these things. And so that was the first time I went to China. We bought a couple of components from China. We bought most of our stuff from, uh, CNC job shop in, um, the Midwest. Um, and then I was doing, you know, a lot of our production management as well. Um, now this was, it was a weird product because we were making a hundred of these things. Right.

Chris Gammell: And I mean, but you didn't probably need to make spares, right? Because if there's a hundred doors, is it a hundred doors or is it a hundred units?

Spencer Wright: It was a hundred doors. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred, a hundred units. Um, now in, you know, some, some sub assemblies there would have been, uh, you know, two, three, 400 of something like that, but still relatively low quantities. Um, which made, you know, for instance, like, um, American CNC suppliers competitive. Right. Okay. Um, uh, but yeah, like all of our, all of our assembly and stuff. I mean, there, there was a limited quantity such that like, we, like, you know, we didn't need to make like full work instructions. We didn't have to have, um, everything fully documented. We could, you know, I, and I was also, this is, this is my favorite, um, like desk situation because like my desk was in the middle of this, I think we had like 20,000 square feet. And to the left of me was the desk of our prototype machinist to the left of him was two lathes and three mils and a CNC and like a bandsaw and so on and so forth. And then all of our assembly area was just to the right of me.

Chris Gammell: And so I could literally mini factory, right?

Spencer Wright: Mini factory. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were on, yeah, we were on the second floor of this building. We actually were in really cool building is this old, uh, Grumman facility that made, you know, they, they manufactured, uh, jets for the Navy for decades. And so downstairs was a huge, you know, it was a hanger that was like full of, um, much larger equipment, but our little area, I mean, it was, it was like our little skunk works and we developed prototypes and then we did, you know, QC of stuff that was coming in and then we did most of our assembly there and then moved it to a different area of the building to, to do the final stuff. And so it was this environment where like I, you know, I, we, yeah, like I said, like I was doing procurement. Yeah. Like I went to China, you know, I went to like, um, uh, but we were then doing kind of small scale production, um, in a way that it didn't matter that I wasn't, or it, it, it, it did matter, but it didn't kill us that I wasn't super experienced at, you know, uh, making assembly drawings or so on and so forth. I see. I see. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean, the, the assembly drawing at that point is you pointing at a thing and be like, all right, now screw that into that. Right. Yeah. Yeah. That is interesting too, because thinking about that scaling issue, right there, you were, you were probably right on the cusp of needing to, you know, like, like when do you, when do you really decide to pull the trigger on? Like, you know, is there, if there were repetitive action 4,000 times, you know, like if each assembly has a 400, you know, turns of a screw, then maybe you do need to spec it out somehow, or you do need to get a torque wrench or, you know what I mean? Like all of those things that, yeah, you learn it once, but it's like, time saves nine kind of thing.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Yep. The other thing that, um, kind of developed on that job was that, I mean, we were, we were making this product and then shipping it out to a construction site. Right. Right. So like, I, I think that, um, you know, my inclination was probably to overcompensate for my, my lack of experience and trying to get everything to be as accurate and precise as possible. So, um, we were shipping a product that was super consistent, but then we were shipping it out to a beach house that didn't have a roof, you know, like it was, it was a war zone out there and, and it's also like, it's a job site that employed, you know, on a busy day, like a hundred people. And so there are plumbers and electricians.

Chris Gammell: It's got to be moved. Yeah, exactly.

Spencer Wright: And you're, and you're moving these things. They weigh literally a ton. And so you're moving them around with a boom that has a bunch of suction cups on it. It was a, you know, it was a crazy environment to be installing and then troubleshooting a complex, um, electromechanical product. I mean, we had like the, the whole system is run off a Linux computer in the basement and then you have power line communication to each of these hundred doors. And they're just like, like, there's just like noise around the job site. Like there's just stuff happening that made, um, yeah, you're like, you're like listening really closely to hear if this limit switch is being hit the right way. And, you know, yeah, um, unique problems.

Chris Gammell: That is a nice way to say things. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, also, you know, uh, uh, there's a little, I mean, you mentioned like the, the architect versus design, uh, versus, uh, like construction kind of thing. This sounds like a architect, uh, hubris, uh, type thing. Maybe, maybe not. I don't know.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. I mean, it was, I think it was more driven by the, by the client who is somebody who's in the, like well known as a designer and has very, um, uh, yeah, is seen as an authority. Yeah, exactly. So, um, but I, I think that the, the other thing that kind of became evident to me as this, as the project went on was that, you know, we were, I got my, my role was a product manager, right? Like I was doing the whole, like a wide range of things, but my role was as a product manager, um, which was, was kind of weird in the context of a construction project because like we, we ostensibly took directions from the architect who took directions from the client. Um, but there's a, there's a lot of like side channeling and back channeling there. Right. And we were, and like, we were, I mean, we were supplying the like exterior envelope of this building. Like we, like when you, when you walk up to the building, what you see is a hundred sliding glass doors that we built. Right. Right. So like we were, we were taking on ownership over a really large part of the project and we were dealing with like interaction design on a level that architects don't oftentimes think of like architects don't hire sound designers to make a lock and unlock sound for a door. That's not something that architects do typically. And so there were a lot of aspects of, of the, yeah, you're, you're like, this is a primary user interface for the house. Um, and we were kind of like off in our own world making decisions that would definitely affect how the house was experienced. Um, and not like we were like going rogue on stuff, but there were a lot of things that like questions that we might've had that there wasn't an easy answer for, or, and there, or there wasn't a person who was naturally responsible for answering it. Yeah. Right.

Chris Gammell: Well, it's almost like, uh, um, you know, when in any industry, when you say like, all right, you had three choices, you had three choices for door. That is huge that just in that scenario, but let's say it's, uh, all right, you're picking out a new dining room set. You have three choices of chairs and now it's like, okay, but now we're going to make a completely custom sitting surface that can do anything you can possibly dream of. And you have, you are used to, you know, you, the architect are used to picking things out of catalog. It's like, Holy crap. That is, that is a, uh, that's an open-ended thing, you know, like that whole jelly, what's a jelly study. They always talk about like the people kind of freak out and are unhappy when there's many, many types of jelly. Choice paralysis. Yeah. That's it. Yep. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Yeah. So, um, that's incidentally, that's actually why that's part of the reason that we made a single channel FM radio. Cause we were like, we were, we were thinking about like, like choice in like what you listen to and the, it's really comforting to have just like a black version and a white version

Chris Gammell: or whatever it is. If, if you hear me, listen, if you listen to the show that I did with Zach, I just assumed it was cause you guys are living in Brooklyn, you know, like the whole hips, the whole hipster thing, you know, like, is there really any other choice?

Spencer Wright: That, that's why we chose the Mason jar to put it in. Um, and people, people who haven't seen this product, like they'll, they're like, what are these guys talking about? But yeah, it's, it's a radio that is actually housed in a Mason jar. And the, and yeah, the, the reason for that was a, like, you know, manufacturing it and just buying this ball jar from like, like you can go to a hardware store and buy one, buy them even was going to be way easier than making our own enclosure. And then be like, yeah, we like, we live in Brooklyn and that's, it's an aesthetic that like, Hey, you can like it, you can not like it, but it is a thing.

Chris Gammell: And yeah, you guys try to like a pop-up shop or anything or cause it seems like you could, yeah, yeah, yeah. If you try to run Christmas time this year. Yeah. I mean, you guys would kill it, you know? Yeah. So, yeah. Well, that's great. So it sounds, I mean, like this is a, it sounds like it was really a unique, a unique challenge in both cases.

Spencer Wright: Yeah, definitely. Yeah. I have, I've taken on a bunch of those. Yeah. So I, I should also mention, I mean, neither, neither of these things are my full job, my full-time job. I, I, I do also have a job. I work at a company called Entopology, which makes very specialized CAD software for industrial 3D printing. Um, and, and part of the way that, uh, that a lot of people find my newsletter, the prepared is because a couple of years ago I started like blogging about my process of, uh, 3D printing titanium bicycle components. Um, so, uh, yeah, there's this, you know, people, people think of 3D printing, they mostly think of maker bots. Um, but, and this is one complaint that I have with the term 3D printing. I think a lot of people complain that it's like, it sounds too consumery or it sounds too much like a paper printer or whatever. That's all true. But I think the bigger problem is that the term 3D printing doesn't refer to any coherent list of manufacturing technologies. Um, because alongside MakerBot, you also have, um, uh, laser metal powder bed fusion, which is kind of the, the go-to process for companies like Lockheed Martin and, uh, GE and Striker, like medical components are made that way. Um, and then you also have directed energy deposition, which is like how you can print huge metal structures with robotic arms. Yeah. Um, yeah.

Chris Gammell: So we just had, uh, Brent and Bryce on, uh, a couple of weeks ago from, uh, and, uh, oh, I'm going to get in trouble for forgetting who, which was which, but, uh, one of them is that relativity space. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So relativity, yeah.

Spencer Wright: So relativity there, they have these crazy goals about how much of a rocket they're going to print. And it's like 95% of the rocket or something like that. So they're going to print the, you know, yeah, not only the engine, not only the turbo pump, but like also the astronauts inside. Yeah, exactly. Um, so for, yeah, for, for large structures, you use basically like Kuka bots that have like a welding head on the end. Um, so anyway, so, uh, a couple of years ago, I kind of became aware of this, this subclass, which is called laser metal powder bed fusion, which, um, people are aware of SLS, which is the nylon process that like shapeways uses. It's very similar to that. You're spreading out a very thin layer of, in this case, titanium powder, and then selectively melting some of it with a laser. Um, and yeah, you can also use an electron beam. That's called electron beam melting, uh, EBM. Um, and I've, I've printed a bunch of parts with, with EBM as well, but, um, laser metal powder bed fusion, people will know it as DMLS sometimes, although it's technically a trade name that's owned by EOS, I think. Um, it's, uh, it's a process that's like pretty standardly used across the industry or across, you know, aerospace and medical implants and, um, tool and dye, oil and gas. Um, and, uh, you can print parts that are about, you know, kind of up to the size of a bread box ish. Uh, and a couple of years ago I started just thinking like, Hey, like maybe I could print a small bicycle component on that. Um, I wonder if that's possible. Um, wrote a bunch about that process. Um, it turned out that in like 2015, you know, most of the users of, um, metal powder bed fusion were, you know, corporate engineers at company like Lockheed Martin and they don't tend to have blogs. Uh, and so me, like some guy writing about bike parts in Brooklyn, like my website ended up being like a go-to resource for people to learn about this. Um, and, uh, long story short, like, uh, I joined anthropology almost three years ago now, I guess. Um, and yeah, we make CAD software that is like specifically designed for, um, for metal powder about fusion and, and similar processes like SLA, um, like what form labs does and SLS, like what, uh, shapeways, um, does using the, the U S printers.

Chris Gammell: Um, so is it like the, is it the cam layer? It's the CAD layer though, not the cam layer.

Spencer Wright: It's CAD. Yeah, exactly. So, um, now like those, that distinction is a little bit different in the printing world. Sure. Sure. Mainly because.

Chris Gammell: Slicing versus toolpath kind of thing.

Spencer Wright: Well, there's also, there's also the, like the industry is in a weird situation where, um, what you would think of as cam software in, in printing is typically called build prep or something like that. Um, but what you would think of as cam software, um, there's a couple of, a couple of applications in the kind of, um, industrial side, um, materialized magics, um, is a very popular one. And then, um, Autodesk has a product called net fab and they, both those applications have, you know, they started out as just like straight cam processors essentially. But then they've moved upstream and incorporated more and more design, which is weird to me. And like philosophically, I find that very strange. Like I want to have my design locked and then go into my manufacturing side. Um, but there are like legacy issues for why they, they think it's strategic for them to, to go upstream. Um, and so anyway, more and more design tools are built into those, into those, um, software suites. Anyway, um, what anthropology does, we, yeah, we have a, we have CAD software that is like specific to design for additive. So our primary product is called element. Um, and it's a lattice design software. So, um, a lot of structures are either like regular, like repeating, or there can be, um, like random or pseudo random structures that have like a lot of beams, right? So you think like a, like the truss of a bridge, but scaled way, way, way down with a lot more beams. Don't print bridges. That's not, that's not right. Um, yeah, I, I, I agree. Uh, so yeah, the parts that, that people use our software design are like, um, uh, acetabular cups. So if you get a hip plant, um, very common, uh, method of making hip cups is to print them. So you print this part titanium, like hip, like, yeah, yeah. A hip replacement. Okay.

Chris Gammell: Like a hip replacement. Okay. Like, yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: Yep. Right. Yeah. Yeah. And I mean, same thing with like, um, so hip cups are one of these things where it's like, like that, that's a pretty known process and, um, their companies are just like churning out hip cups and doing hip replacements and it's a pretty standardized product. Um, but then also like if you, you know, if you had like, um, like a craniofacial surgery, like if you get in a car crash, right.

Chris Gammell: You like fold, fold or figure out what your face look like. So it's not.

Spencer Wright: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. So regardless of what part of your body they're replacing, um, if you're introducing metal into bone, you know, traditionally you just screw the piece of titanium into your bone. Um, but they realized that like, yeah, it's yeah. But they realized that like, okay, bone is porous and bone. If you're young enough, it'll actually grow. And so, um, what you'd prefer to have is a porous metal structure that the bone can grow into over time and create a much stronger, um, overall structure. Right. So the way you do that is you, you, this hip cup isn't solid. It's actually porous. And the way it's porous is that it's made of a lattice. And so a hip cup, I mean, this is a part that's, you know, size of like a, like a tangerine or a clementine, something like that. Um, and on the outside surface, there's this lattice structure that might have, you know, a hundred thousand or 500,000 tiny little beams that are oriented at like pseudo random, um, orientations and have, um, you know, some range of lengths and thicknesses and so on and so forth. Um, well, it turns out those parts are really difficult to design in like your solid works or your Siemens NX or any of those softwares. Um, yeah. Unless you have an intern, you're just like, all right, just make it look.

Chris Gammell: Just make it look funky.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. And the problem is even if you do design it, then they're really hard to edit. And so you kind of need a fundamentally different way of thinking about design. Um, and, and topology software allows you to do that. Um, uh, yeah. So I, I, I bring that up, uh, partly to plug the company I work for, but partly because like, this is another thing where I've like, like, this is a real niche in a niche in a niche. Um, somehow I've like made a, made a thing about it. No, no, no.

Chris Gammell: We've had like three or four hip replacement people on the amp hour about electronics. Oh, really? Oh, wow. No, I'm just kidding. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um, yeah. I mean, like, I think that that, that is the kind of thing though. Like that's, I mean, so like a lot of people listening, I'm sure that they can relate at least to the, you know, like these are the things that pay the bills too, right. That allow you to have the general interest around manufacturing or, you know, a lot of people like, hell, I used to work on what electronics that measured electronics. Like that's, that's pretty niche too. Right. I mean, like that's, yeah. So yeah, no worries on that kind of thing. Um, I mean, so like to take a step back and, and to kind of trend spot, because I think that you, you're in a unique position cause you are regularly looking at the industry. And, uh, so I guess my first one would be, you know, because you're, you're closer to this stuff too. You know, I keep seeing all these articles about, you know, 3d printing is the manufacturing future. Uh, I'm not going to ask true or false, but what's your, what's your, what's your hot take on that as like a manufacturing process for everything? Because that's how it's usually written as.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. So I'm going to answer that in a kind of roundabout way. Um, there's a company, uh, called precision cast parts corp, um, PCC. Um, you ever heard of PCC? Okay. So that's, that's the typical response. No one has heard of PCC. Um, PCC does precision casting, right? They make parts for, they're well named.

Chris Gammell: I gotta say.

Spencer Wright: Yeah, that's right. They, they make parts for, you know, rotating equipment, you know, power machinery and, um, you know, gas turbine blades, that kind of thing. Yeah. Yep. Um, they are, I think that they're, I think that their number one customer is GE, um, either power and water or aviation. Yeah. Um, and then the other, the other big customers are both. They're going and they're located in, uh, I forget. They're in the Seattle, Portland area. I think, um, PCC was acquired a couple of years ago by Berkshire Hathaway. And it was the largest acquisition that Berkshire Hathaway has ever made. And so like, this is like precision casting is, it's a thing, man. Like it's, it's really important. And like you fly in an airplane, there's a decent chance that you, that there are parts that are critical to that airplane's flight that are made by PCC. Um, they're a big, big, big engineers.

Chris Gammell: Exactly.

Spencer Wright: CFD done on all that stuff. You're right. Yeah. Exactly. And nobody cares because nobody cares about precision casting. And they're like part of the reason, because there's not a bunch of venture capital money going at it. And like, you know, Warren Buffett as an investor is a lot quieter than, you know, name your VC firm. Right. So I think that, which is to say essentially that 3d printing is better marketed than precision casting. Um, and I think like my, my suspicion is that, you know, like you, like if you go to like an innovation conference or something like that, like they'll make, they'll make analogies between 3d printing and, uh, like Silicon, right. They'll, they'll say like, it's, it's like the, it's the new microchip, right? Like it's, I, I think it's way more like precision casting. I think it is a hugely important technology that is going to fundamentally change the way that our world works, but it's going to do so in ways that are kind of subtle and that normal consumers are just never going to think about. It's not going to be something that they are aware of or care about. And I mean, like, like, especially in the consumer space, like nobody cares, like no, like, like nobody's like, oh, I bought this, this consumer product because it was manufactured with this particular technology. Like they're like, it's really rare to do that. I mean, it like, um, like the best example I can think of is fly knit shoes, right? Like Nike's fly knit is, is a thing, right? People care about that kind of, but it's also like, like Nike is a really good marketing organization, you know? Um, and so, and like, you can imagine that fly knit would go away in a couple of years too.

Chris Gammell: So I think, yeah. And I think about like, okay, so VC is like talking about the, the new highfalutin thing, right? But they're usually not talking about, you know, the person shopping at Walmart in Arkansas or in, you know, the middle of Iowa. And like, uh, and like most of the stuff that you get at a Walmart or a Target or whatever, like try driving the cost down more than an injection. Like I'm just thinking about like a plastic cup that you have in your kitchen. Like that thing costs fractions of a penny to make. And then they're like, no, no, no. 3d printing is going to be the way it's like, well, maybe the 3d printing will impact the injection molder, but probably not. Yeah. That process is pretty well fixed. It is.

Spencer Wright: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. I think that, um, yeah, the more that I kind of play around, I like, I like, I like printing. Like, I think it's a cool, like, uh, laser and metal powder, but fusion is a really cool technology and I definitely buy into its future. Um, and I, but I don't think that you have to have consumer products made that way to have it be interesting or important or have a huge impact in the world. Um, I think, I mean, I think that, yeah, it's also the case that like, I'm a pessimist about this stuff. I mean, you know, I, I feel the same way about mass customization in general, you know? Um, and this is as somebody who, like I essentially manufacture a mass customized product. I mean, the public radio it's tuned to one station. Like I said, it's, it's a, it's made just in time. Um, and the programming of the AT tiny is done after the purchase. Um, and I know from experience like that, there is a ton of work that went into that system. And I like, I don't look like, yeah, I, I look around me and I'm struck by how few products really require that, uh, amount of work. And like, it just, it just better to make something that's more general purpose.

Chris Gammell: So, well then let's, uh, take another step back and then what, you know, as a, as a, uh, uh, spreader of trends, right. And they, you know, someone who's watching the industry, what are some general trends that you kind of have been keeping your eye on in the manufacturing space or more broadly? And, you know, just kind of what the, the prepared covers.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. I, so I think, I mean, the prepared covers, whatever I'm interested in basically. And I like that, like that, uh, that, that varies widely. Um, I think that I, I am, uh, I'm very interested in, um, yeah, like reducing the number of toll gates that, that you have to come through to, to make the products, right?

Chris Gammell: Like, Oh, I thought you were going to say about actual toll gates, like, man, traffic's getting worse in New York, huh?

Spencer Wright: Okay. No, it's like, it's like, like dorky things, like bringing a file from one piece of software to another. Um, yeah. Like that, like that.

Chris Gammell: There's a 3d printing thing. I, I did that definitely like, Oh yeah, you definitely are using a USB stick still, right?

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Yeah. It's a terrible process. Um, and someone should totally fix that. Um, uh, I also, um, you know, a lot of people, a lot of people talk to me about like, um, procuring parts more easily. Um, and you know, I don't know how many like procurement platforms I've been asked to, to check out, um, or like communication platforms that are meant for you to talk to your vendors. Um, and to me, like that all kind of misses a fundamental point about manufacturing, which is that like, ultimately as somebody who designed a product and is having somebody else make it like you're buying services and you're buying someone's time and someone's emotional availability and like their, like their willingness to think through problems with you. And I really think that like most of the software solutions that people are, are pointing towards procurement really fundamentally miss the target on that. Um, and in fact, they tend to further isolate us from the places where things are made. Um, you know, like I said, like my, my favorite time, uh, like working as an engineer was sitting at a desk next to a lathe, you know, like that, like that, it, it allows you to develop a stronger sense of empathy. And, um, yeah, and that's, that's critical to getting your stuff, uh, where you want it, when you want it there. Um, so now the, the hard part about that is it's like not that sexy of a problem. Right. I mean, I don't know.

Chris Gammell: I used to work on it. I don't, I don't know, man. Like, uh, I don't know if you knew that. I actually, I used to work on it. Tell me. Yeah. It was like a marketplace kind of thing. It was called supply effects for, I was working for supply frame and it was like meant to be that it was like meant to be like a, Hey, let's pair up a and B and, uh, get them talking to each other. Right. So you have someone coming in and looking for a, a widget, you know, a injection molded widget and they know they have the specs and whatever, and they want to figure out all the places they can go and shop for different vendors. Right. Yeah. And the problem is that you, you have a list of 5,000 injection molding providers. Like you, so you've been to China, right? And it's like, when you have all of the available injection molders in the world to you, how the hell do you start picking? And it's like, you know, usually you start going off of like recommendations. Yeah. It's like, okay, well let's make, let's make a recommendation system. Um, but then, then the problem is, well, uh, we have 5,000 people and you know, we have 20 people who have rated, you know, one, one person each. And it's like, that doesn't help. And so it's like these critical mass problems. It's like, you can't do the Yelp method that you, you know, that people would think is the real thing.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. And like people, uh, I mean, I'm still surprised that MFG.com is a thing. Like I, I have gotten suppliers off of that. I like, I've, I've developed good relationships off of MFG.com. But like part of their core idea was like supplier ratings. And as a buyer, there's very little incentive for me to leave anything but a five star rating. Like if the project went well, I'm going to give them five stars. If it didn't go well, then I'm just going to walk away because I don't want to like, I'm not going to bad mouth my supplier. Right. Um, cause I might need them in the future.

Chris Gammell: I think that's, that's a big thing. Like, it sounds like what you're getting towards is that like manufacturing has lots of people problems, right? There is no abstraction layer that you can remove people from manufacturing. Even if it's robots doing the stuff, there's still humans that want money for you to use the robots. Exactly. Yeah. So how do we fix, how do we fix the human problem, Spencer?

Spencer Wright: Well, I mean, I am, I'm really into, uh, the idea of like making more of our stuff closer to where we want it. Now I think that there are some really big limitations to that. Um, and, and like, like, look, look, like I like, you know, USA, USA, everything, but like, I'm, I'm not really that jingoistic about it. Um, and I like, I, I really like China. Like I, I really enjoy being in China. I like the way that the business gets done there. I really appreciate the like cultural heritage of the place. It's like a fascinating, uh, 4,000 year history. Um, but I know that, I mean, I mean, this is mostly selfish. Like, like, you know, I like geeking out about seeing factories and like, it's hard to go halfway around the world and do that. And so like, if I can find a place that's near me, that's like halfway good at them, fantastic. Um, I think that, but I think there are a bunch of things that have to happen to make that feasible. And honestly, like one of them is like, like, uh, you have to change your expectation of your own standard of living, right? You've changed your expectation for what your margin is going to be, you know, which is, which is really, really tough. Um, it's something that I feel like deeply ambivalent about, like on the one hand, like, I know I'm motivated by money, but also, you know, yeah. But what, like, would my life actually be better, you know, taking a 40% margin or whatever it is. And then having like being able to see the person who's making my thing every couple of months, like, is that trade-off worth it? Um, I think in a lot of cases it actually is. And I know that especially, I mean, for us, like I said, we've, we've shipped something like 5,000 radios. I personally have touched probably 2,500 of those. Like literally my hands have been on 2,500 of those radios in some capacity. And honestly, like we, we have rolled out, we, we rolled out to, we had, uh, so we're like super, super happy with Worthington, our contract manufacturer. We did some production with another contract manufacturer who I will not name in Chicago. Um, and, uh, ended up having to end the relationship. And part of it is because the people there were really difficult to deal with. Um, but part of it also is because we rolled out too quickly. Like, and I, I think that, I think that engineers and product companies jump to outsourcing stuff way too early. And there's, there's a lot of units that you could touch that would improve your ability to ship product. And it would improve your customer experience in a lot of ways. Um, and it would just like, it just kind of like make your ecosystem more healthy.

Chris Gammell: Um, so when you say, when you say give up a margin, do you mean give up margin at the beginning or just give it up generally? Like, cause it sounds like you're saying, give some of it up and then, you know, deal, work out of the wrinkles and, and do that kind of thing. And then eventually start to cost optimize and move to other facilities.

Spencer Wright: Uh, I mean, maybe if, if that makes sense, then sure. You know, I mean, I, I mean, I can say like the labor rates that we pay are significantly higher than, I mean, they're, you know, whatever. Uh, yeah, they're, they're, they're way, way higher than we would play, uh, going to China. Um, and maybe that's okay. You know, like, like that, you know, you don't, you don't like need your 60% or whatever it is. Like you can, like you can do things differently than the rest of the industry does.

Chris Gammell: And I think that like, maybe I might, I might challenge you to that a little bit. I mean, you guys aren't doing that full time.

Spencer Wright: So I think that's, that's totally fair.

Chris Gammell: I think that changes things too. Right. I mean, like, uh, paying for marketing budgets and all those other things.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. I guess I would just say like, like, I think that it's easy to, you know, read someone's blog post, um, from some venture capital backed company talking about like how they did it and think like, all right, I'm gonna do it that way. And I, I would, I just think that thinking those things critically is, um, it's a good idea in general. And maybe you end up at the same conclusion. Um, but I mean like we, like our first Kickstarter campaign, we sold 2,500 units and we, we manufactured and assembled those in lower Manhattan in my office. Like it was like, you know, and, and like, that was, that was painful in a lot of ways, but it was also really fun.

Chris Gammell: I remember Zach said that you, uh, you were, uh, leaning on some, some free labor. I think your labor rate was zero. Oh yeah, yeah, totally.

Spencer Wright: But like, like, Hey, like, and like at the time, like I was a strategy consultant, like I, like, and like a lot of my friends, my colleagues, like they were people who, they did like consulting for American express, you know, like they weren't, they didn't have a manufacturing background and you know what, like they are not only were they more than happy to spend, you know, a Saturday making radios, but it was, it was super fun and it was interesting and it presented like cool challenges. And I don't know, you, you end up at the end of the day and you're like, you feel like real accomplishment in a way that, um, I don't think we would have gotten otherwise. And also like it would have been impossible for us to do it any other way. So, um, cause we, we didn't have the money we, we, we, yeah, you know, um, and no one like no factory in China is going to make an FM radio house in a Mason jar that has to be tuned on a one-off basis and then ship them all around the world for you when your order quantity size is 2,500. Like that's just not a practical thing. Um, and so that, that decision was very easy for us to make to, to essentially insource it. Um, but I, I do really think that a lot more companies and a lot more teams could, should be thinking that way. I think it would make them much better at addressing, identifying and addressing problems earlier on in their process.

Chris Gammell: Um, can we relate that back to the, you said reducing the number of toll gates, bringing a product to market. I'm curious about what that is, but then also it sounds like this is another step that you're looking to, you're saying that people should consider more options in general. And that sounds like another step. So can you kind of just square those things as well?

Spencer Wright: Uh, sorry, you mean you're talking about the, the, the toll gate comment?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So you had said you wanted to, so like that's the trend I had asked trend spotting and like you said that you were kind of, you're interested in things that are like reducing the number of toll gates.

Spencer Wright: So, yeah, I mean, I think there are a bunch of, there are a bunch of ways to, to think about toll gates. I mean, like the, um, one, one aspect of that, that I have felt very acutely at different points in, in my career is like you were saying with, with like printing apart where you're like exporting a step file and then bring into something else and exporting it as an STL and so on and so forth. Like those to me, whenever you're changing tools, there's a toll gate there and, um, reducing that and like making things play nicer together is again, like it's not a sexy problem that like tech crunch is going to write about, but it's hugely impactful. And I think that, um, yeah, more, more startups in the like hardware space should be thinking about those kinds of problems. But I, I think that, um, like, like another, uh, a different weird example of that is like we were saying about like work instructions. Um, it's, you know, if you're, if you're shipping your product halfway around the world to get it manufactured by someone who may or may not speak the same language as you, then there's like, there's a bunch of overhead in that process. And that ends up being a significant toll gate, right? Like you have to, you have like, there's a whole different level of documentation. There's a whole bunch of travel. Typically there's like all of these hurdles you have to get through to get to that point when it might just be way, way easier to sit down yourself and do the thing. Um, and then again, you're gonna identify a lot of problems with it and not do it the same way the second time when you do ship it around the world, if that makes sense. Right. So, yeah. Okay.

Chris Gammell: No, interesting. So are you, are you, and you're seeing companies do this though, or, or you're kind of hoping that this is a thing?

Spencer Wright: Eh, might, might be a little bit hopeful. I mean the, like, I, I think that they're like, you know, in, in my, in my like little 3d printing world, like, um, for sure, uh, the, like the file transfer stuff is getting easier. Um, you have to, if you have to look for it, like it's, it's not, it's not like shouting at you most of the time, but, um, it is definitely happening. Uh, as far as the, like the, like just communicating work instructions or whatever. I mean, I will say, so, uh, the public radio uses Tulip, which is manufacturing software.

Chris Gammell: Um, Oh, and you had one of their, one of their people on your show. Ronnie.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, yeah, I mean, Tulip, uh, has been an amazing tool for us and allowed us to do a ton of stuff, um, that would have been really difficult otherwise. And part of what it allowed us to do was like, uh, deploy for ourselves a manufacturing system that we could use and then very seamlessly transition to run that out to a larger, to, to, to, to a contract manufacturer. Right.

Chris Gammell: Got it. Um, right. So does that include things like, uh, like material handling and, uh, PLM systems and stuff like that?

Spencer Wright: Uh, not really. I mean, we have links to those systems because we have, we have a really idiosyncratic, um, like order management, inventory management system. Um, and so Tulip has links out to that for us. Uh, Tulip primarily is a, I mean, it's like a way of communicating work instructions and then gathering data about your manufacturing process, um, that is super seamless. Um, yeah, it's, it's a, it's a whole other subject. That's really, really interesting. Uh, and that is, it's probably worth a longer conversation. Um, but, uh, but it, it does definitely attack that problem of like, like figuring out how to document something easily and roll it out really quickly in a way that is also then flexible, either whether you're on the floor or whether you're a couple thousand miles away, like, um, you can log in and change and like update, um, your assembly steps and, and then deploy that like in real time. So.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, no, it's, it, I think, I think there is a lot of what you were saying earlier too about the, um, you know, it's tough to convince VCs that the manufacturing space is sexy. Right. But those are generally interesting. So things like Tulip and, and other, uh, you know, PLM type startups, they're big spaces with like, with big players too. Right. I mean, like arena solutions, you try and take them on. If you take them on, it's like, they're, they're well-funded. They're, you know, they're gonna, they're gonna, they're gonna notice that you're there. They're going to try and crush you. Yeah. Hopefully they try and buy you instead of crushing. Okay. But, um, and, but I think the other thing too, is that it's, it's not a consumer level startup either, where you can't, you can't go and source, you know, you can't send it to all your friends and hope they send it to all their friends, you know, the, the social network method and be like, oh, well, if we lose 30%, it's no big deal. It's like, no, no, no. If you lose 30% of the 10 customers in your space, you are, you are SOL, you know, you will not operate anymore. So it's a, yeah.

Spencer Wright: Sending it to your friends is, yeah. I mean, it depends on who your friends are, I guess.

Chris Gammell: True. Yeah. But I mean, like, I don't know if someone sent, if I was doing a manufacturing line and someone sent me that, you know, a piece of software and says, Hey, can you try this out? I'd be like, uh, no, I'm busy. Uh, I'm making things, you know, I'm not, I'm not pulling this in here unless there's a very, very clear value proposition for why I should mess up my life. You know?

Spencer Wright: Yeah. I think the flip side of that is that like, if you can make that value proposition, then the decision can be made on purely rational terms, which is something that is a lot harder with consumer products. Um, I mean, yeah, with like, this is a benefit of being in B2B is that you can fight, you identify your customer and figure out what the business case is. And if you can make that business case, then you got a pretty good chance of making the sale. Um, hopefully. Yeah. Hopefully. Hopefully.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. That's great. So any other, any other last, uh, last trends that you're, uh, you know, got on the horizon that you're interested in? I, I'm, I'm basically, uh, I'm, I'm tagging you as a kingmaker here. You know, like you get to list all of the trends that electronics people should keep an eye out for, uh, in the manufacturing space.

Spencer Wright: Oh God. Uh, actually, no pressure. Well, so, so, so this isn't quite a trend maybe, but, uh, probably. So I like, like, I love tools, right? Like I, like I, I have a lot of tools and I really like, uh, distinguishing between tools and like thinking about what they're just good for. And, uh, probably my favorite, the tool that made the biggest impact in my work that I found, uh, maybe nine months ago or so is something called, uh, parts box.io. Are you aware of this? I am. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, so I, and again, it's not a trend, but this is something that like made a huge difference to me. I like, I'm not an EE, right? Like I, like whatever, I have a DigiKey account. Like I buy stuff from DigiKey, but I don't, I don't do that on a regular basis and it's not core to my, to my work. But I buy a lot of stuff from McMaster car and I have like a big parts box that's, you know, full of, you know, some bolt that I bought five years ago for a project that is now defunct or whatever. And one of my biggest frustrations has been like having a, yeah, having one of those, uh, parts cabinets has the little drawers and the little label on it. And you write the McMaster car part number on the label and then you try to fit like the thread spec in there as well or something like that. Right. And I had this, I had this system built up for like many, many years of, of doing just that and doing a bad job at it. And then I transitioned over to parts box and it is amazing. And it's like this web based system that you have all of your parts listed in. You can search it. If you do DigiKey, they actually hit the DigiKey APIs or maybe the Octobar API or something like that and get all the part data for you. Um, and then you're like looking at your parts box and you can like open up a drawer, find the, like the, the drawer number and really quickly search and find exactly what part spec is in there, like what you paid for it and so on and so forth.

Chris Gammell: Um, it's something that I have, this is always like, like actually keeping track of like when I pull something out of the drawer in a hurry. Do you remove stock? Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Spencer Wright: So I, I, I like got anal about this. Like I, like I totally do. Like I will, I mean, it depends on like what I'm using, but I definitely have stock alerts for like set up for a bunch of parts that I, that I keep around. Um, and, and yeah, like it just, I, I think that the, like, like it took me a couple of weeks, um, of just like downtime or whatever to import all my parts into the system. Um, but then at the end of it, like seeing the value, like the total value of all the nuts and bolts that I have. And it's like thousands of dollars and having that then like, like I'm working on something and I'm like, shit, like I need like an M six by 30 socket head cap screw and being able to quickly search and find out whether I have that or something similar to it, regardless of whether I'm at home is just amazing. I love that so much. And it's like this level of like personal inventory that I think I, like I thought that was going to happen in a different way where you'd have like sensors or something. Um, but that's not really practical. And ultimately like clicking the remove stock button, isn't that heavy of a lift if it's a part that I really care about having in stock.

Chris Gammell: Right. Right. That's interesting. Yeah. I, you know, I, uh, like I, I think I mentioned at the beginning of the show, like I'm acutely aware of all where all my stuff is right now because I'm moving and, uh, it's, it's painful, right? I think I'm going to be going through a, you know, a period where I'm like, where the hell is this thing? Where is this thing? And it's like that organization is, I mean, I guess kind of like we were talking about earlier, it's like that investment upfront that like a, like a work order, right? It's like that, that investment upfront of, you know, some, some amount of order in your life that ultimately pays dividends later on, you know?

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Well, that's good. I'm glad you could do, I'd, I'd be curious to see what that looks like. I mean, uh, I've actually talked to Jan on email before who does the, uh, um, who does the parts box.

Spencer Wright: So, um, I mean, it's also cool. It's like, it's a one person company that makes this product that is like, I'm on the free version and it's excellent. And yeah, I'm, I'm really impressed with it. Awesome.

Chris Gammell: Well, that's good to know. I think that, I mean, and like, you know, I, I was actually asking on Twitter the other day too, about how people keep stuff organized. And, uh, so I am, I'm definitely thinking about this stuff and I think that it's, it's probably, this strikes the right balance too, but somewhere between like piece of paper and, uh, the, me and Dave usually laugh about that one where it's like you click on where is this thing? And then it lights up a custom toolbox and it has a little LED that lights up that shows you where it is. It's like, all right, that's a little, that's a little too far. A little too much. But somewhere between those things is maybe parts box or similar, similar situations. Yeah. Awesome. Uh, where can people find out more about you and your companies and everything you're doing?

Spencer Wright: So you can find me, I am Pencer W P E N C E R W on pretty much all platforms. Uh, and, uh, the prepared, my newsletter goes out Mondays. It is at theprepared.org. Don't go to the.com one. That's a prepper guy. I'm not him.

Chris Gammell: Um, yeah, yeah, yeah. We, we know, we know your secret now. Um, and then use parts box to like figure out where your MREs are and you know, like how many bullets you have remaining for when the zombies attack.

Spencer Wright: Hey, that would be useful. Yeah. Um, and then yeah, uh, uh, uh, n topology is n topology, T O P O L O G Y dot com. Um, everything else is a pretty easy to find from those sources. Cool.

Chris Gammell: All right. Well, thanks Spencer for being on the show. It's been, uh, it's been good talking about manufacturing and 3d printing and all the, all the, all the stuff. And, uh, hopefully we can, we can meet up when you're, when you're here in town at IMTS. Uh, that'll be fun.

Spencer Wright: Yeah. Look forward to seeing you there, Chris. Thank you. All right. Thanks a lot. See ya.

Speaker ?: Bye. Bye. Bye. !