#385 – An Interview with John Davis

John Davis: This is The Amp Hour Podcast, released March 25th, 2018. Episode 385, an interview with John Davis.

Chris Gammell: Welcome to the Amp Hour. I'm Chris Gammell of Contextual Electronics. And I'm John Davis of Paul Davis Automation and 3ML, I guess, 3ML LLC. Welcome, John. How are you doing? Doing all right, man. How are you doing?

John Davis: Good, good. We just did a live intro there, and that was the first time, so that was scary. But other than that, you know, pretty good. Hey, man, it sounded good to me. I can't be a critic. Okay. All right. Awesome. Well, and you are a regular listener and an old friend from Cleveland, so welcome to the show.

Chris Gammell: That's right. That's right. And we'll let you back in just one time because you left.

John Davis: Yeah, I know. I know. I'm one of them. I'm one of them. But before we do anything else, let's—so, John, what do you do for a living? Oh, God. Do we have enough time to describe that? I mean, what's the one word thing that I'm looking for here that we have not had on the show yet?

Chris Gammell: Oh, well, you're probably going to lose all your listeners. Sales.

John Davis: Sales. Sales. Sales. I'm going to try and put, like, some, like, background, like, alarm, you know, like, klaxon noises or something like that, too. Yeah. So, yeah.

Chris Gammell: I actually have one of those giant, like, dancing things. You see it, like, used car lots in the back of my office here. Oh, really? Dancing, guys. Oh, yes.

John Davis: That's how you really bring people in, you know? Yes, yes. Yeah. So, I've known John for a while. You've also taken my course. So, John is a salesperson who's also, like, actually involved software background, builds his own hardware. So, all across the spectrum there. That's why I thought this would be, like, a good, a soft introduction to sales, right? And specifically in industrial sales, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. Industrial automation, specifically mechatronics. There's a buzzword for you.

John Davis: Yeah, that is a little buzzy. That means robots or just, like, more generic, like, things moving down a production line?

Chris Gammell: Motion. Motion, got it. Yeah, it can include robots, but we specifically don't get into robots. But, yeah, if it moves, it's mechatronics.

John Davis: Oh, I actually didn't know that classification. That's interesting.

Chris Gammell: I might be making that up, but it sounds really good. That's how we classify it.

John Davis: I mean, so, like, whenever I hear mechatronics, it was usually in a university context, and it was basically like, well, you're going to do some mechanical stuff. You're going to do some electrical stuff. That's how I always heard it. And I think that moving things in an industrial context would be, yeah, that makes sense.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, and I don't know what the actual definition is. I mean, I think now it's more formalized. I've heard of university programs for it, but, yeah. Yeah, I mean, in our world, it's control theory, mechanical engineering, electrical engineering.

John Davis: Yeah, makes sense. Makes sense. Cool. Well, that's great, man. So, well, tell us about, like, I mean, so, obviously, you're in the Midwest, and there's a lot of industrial stuff there. What are the kind of industries that you're in and out of every day? I mean, you said motion, but does that mean manufacturing facilities? Are they – because I think about, like, you could be doing manufacturing. That's the stuff I like. But, like, you know, industrial kind of covers a wide swath of things. It could even be, like, an Amazon package facility. So, like, what are the places that you're normally going into?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, and, you know, when I was thinking of the answer for that, when you were talking there, I was going to say because of the lines you represent, and then I realized that people may not know what I mean when I say that.

John Davis: Oh, yeah. That's a good point.

Chris Gammell: Do you want me to – yeah, do you want me to explain?

John Davis: Sure, yeah, yeah. I've written a post about that a long time ago of, like, the difference between all these things. But that was a long time ago, and it's still confusing. So, yeah, go ahead.

Chris Gammell: Okay, gotcha. So – and I'll try not to lose all your listeners in this, so I'll keep it very brief. But the company that – my company, the company that I own, manufactures representative, which means we're, like, an outsourced sales organization slash field applications engineering firm. And companies come to us. Typically, they're small to mid-size manufacturing companies working in a niche. They come to us, and they use us as their outside salespeople. So, when I say the lines we represent, I mean the manufacturers that we partner with, our partners, our principals is kind of the jargon that we use. So, they're the companies we partner with. And in a defined geographic area, we sell their products for them, and we support them, too. That's where the FAE part comes into it. But, yeah, so – and our company, we have eight lines who we represent. And to answer your other question more directly, these lines span, oh, a wide variety of products within a very specific niche. So, that niche, again, is mechatronics. And being Ohio, we have a little bit of everything in terms of industry here. So, I'm in everything from aerospace, making aircraft engines, to yogurt manufacturing, everything in between.

John Davis: That's great. I mean, that's a nice thing. I mean, like, well, I've never hid that I love the industrial space just because it is, like, there's tons of cool problems to solve. And there's, you know, it's just – usually, it is a pretty traditional set of workplaces. Like, there's not that – there's not that much – you know, it needs updates for a lot of things. We'll get into that, I'm sure, too. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. Yeah. What is the – so, you'd said a manufacturer – sorry, did you say manufacturer's rep?

Chris Gammell: Yep, manufacturer's representative. Yeah.

John Davis: So, I'd heard – I've heard sales rep and I've heard marketing rep before. So, what is – are you on the sales side?

Chris Gammell: Yes. Or a little bit of both. You know, the lines are blurred now, especially with the internet in terms of what companies provide. There are companies like mine who provide marketing services. But in a traditional sense, we just stick to the sales side of things. Got it.

John Davis: Okay. Yeah, because, I mean, like, I did always kind of get confused between the rep stuff and then there's also, like, the inside-outside sales thing. Like, because, like, a company, like a big chip company might have a sales rep firm like yours. They might also have a marketing rep firm where people are just kind of getting blasted with emails from, you know, outside entity. They might have someone who's calling – that's, what, inside sales or is that outside sales?

Chris Gammell: Inside sales.

John Davis: Yep. Okay. And then they have sales staff or then the distributors then also sometimes do that stuff, too. So, you're not a distributor, right?

Chris Gammell: No, no, we're not a distributor. And, you know, distributors, they actually take somebody's money. The big joke that I have is we don't sell anything. So, we don't actually take anybody's money. Reps are typically paid on commission for a geographic area. So, basically, in our area, if somebody sells – I'm sorry, if somebody buys something from one of the companies we're contracted with, we receive a certain percentage of that.

John Davis: Okay. That makes sense. And, basically, is it like – is that even if they go online – so, if I go buy, you know, a big motor or something that you rep, is it like even if I go buy it online, you get credit for it or is that not how it works?

Chris Gammell: Oh, it depends on the contract and depends on the company. But, generally, yes. And it also depends on how the company goes to market. I mean, something you said earlier, which we can come back to if you don't want to – or if you're not ready yet. But, you know, I think when people think of sales – and I was the same way before I got into this – they think of sales as like a monolithic thing like the sales. Right, right.

John Davis: Because you're usually like the sales guy or the sales gal. You know, like it's just like – That's right. Right. It's just the one person that you deal with, but it could be one of many people.

Chris Gammell: That's right. And it's actually a pretty complicated machine, really, between inside sales and outside sales and sales channel, which would be your distribution and all that. So, anyways, yeah. Yep.

John Davis: Okay. Yeah. And it's interesting for me, too, because it's – at a certain point, you pretty much set up – like you have relationships with like individuals, right? You know someone at Yogurt Factory as that example you gave, right? You know one of the line engineers at Yogurt Factory and he's basically like, look, I got this problem. Can you help me solve it? And like you're like, well, I've got A, B, and C, but maybe not. You know what I mean? Like it's – that's kind of the idea, right?

Chris Gammell: Pretty much, yeah. I mean that's really what we do on a daily basis. It's – you know, people – yeah, I mean we solve problems. People come to us and say, hey, I need to – I really need to increase my production of yogurt from 45.5 yogurts per minute to 46.2 yogurts per minute. And I have a budget of $180 million to do it or, you know, whatever. Well, hopefully, yeah. That'd be great. That'd be great. Yes. Seriously, right?

John Davis: So how does – I mean – well, so you come from – you know, you do software in the back. You know, you went to school for software, stuff like that. What was your transition into that space? Because, I mean, it's – I don't think it's uncommon, too, that people come out of school with engineering degrees, go into sales and kind of get into that. But we don't really talk to them here.

Chris Gammell: Oh, man. Well, I may be your first then. So – oh, geez. How did I get into software? When I was a teenager – so a quick history of our company. The company, Polydivis Automation, is a family business. And long story short, I've been doing this for about 10 years. Took it over officially about five years ago. And, you know, basically my parents were shutting the company down. And then I bought it from them and have started it back up. So it was not my first job out of college. And if you would have asked me when I was a teenager if I wanted to do this for a living, I would have said, hell no. Are you crazy? Do what the old man does? No way. But when – I wanted to be a programmer. When I was in high school, one of the engineers who worked for my parents' company at the time was using this thing called Linux. And I had never heard of Linux. And all I knew was it was this scary-looking thing that ran on the server. And it ran the company email and file server and all that. And anyway, he left the company. And, of course, you know, this was back in – oh, geez, probably 2000, 99, 98, somewhere in there. Maybe a little bit earlier.

John Davis: Okay, so not when Linux got a little easier, but, you know.

Chris Gammell: No, yeah. It got easier, by the way?

John Davis: Yeah, it did, actually. I mean, like when you just think about, like, package management and having the internet connected, that changed a lot of stuff, right? Of, like, being able to download from repositories. That – it wouldn't be where it is today otherwise, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Oh, for sure. And, you know, for – maybe this will date it better than my faulty memory. But at the time, we would get updates. It was Red Hat. We would get updates on CD with all the RPMs on it for things to be updated. Oh, if you're going to get it, right?

John Davis: It's a letter to floppy disk, right? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Hey, man, we had a shared 56K modem line, seriously. But anyways – Kids these days, huh, John? Oh. Man, you know, well, yeah. Don't get me started. I feel old already. Yeah. Okay.

John Davis: Well, no, so – but, like, how did you – the – I mean, I was actually asking, how did you – how did you take the transition into sales, though? Like – Oh. This sounds like a standard nerd story. I mean, yeah. But you were – you were the nerd, and then you went into the sales thing, and that's the thing that I'm – I mean, I'm also interested in your software stuff, but, you know, like –

Chris Gammell: Oh, oh, it's linked, I promise. So I went to school for computer science. And thinking that computer science was going to be software engineering, which I didn't even know that term existed at the time. And when I got to school, I remember about my junior year, I had a crisis. And they were learning – like, everybody in the class – I remember this vividly. Everybody in the class was super stoked about learning how to do some mathematical proof in Haskell. And I'm looking at this thing going, F this. Like, this is – How about no? Literally. I went, no. Yeah. I cannot think of any practical application for this. And the professor, you know, with his big, giant beard and, you know, the type of guy who you think would look like loving to do mathematical proofs in Haskell, he just looks at me and says, you don't like this, do you? And I was like, no. No, I really don't. So I switched majors. And I grabbed onto the thing that I could graduate the soonest with. So that was psychology. So I actually don't have an engineering degree. Oh, okay. Yeah, a psychology degree. Yep. Nice. And then I went through a crisis. I didn't know what to do because I thought maybe I wasn't a programmer because I didn't like computer science. Basically raced mountain bikes for a few years, went to work for an advertising agency. And then, I don't know, figured that that was going to get me nowhere. So I approached my folks and said, hey, I want to buy the business and take over. And that's that.

John Davis: Okay. So what was the transition to sales, though? Like, that's what I'm really wondering. Like, so you had to then go in and fake it? I mean, like, that's the thing. Like, it sounds like you have technical questions coming from your users. So what was that like? And then you're also like, oh, and also pay me, well, pay, you know, pay my salary commission, whatever, right?

Chris Gammell: Oh, it was horribly painful. When I went into it, I was, I mean, the only sales experience I had was retail, which is a little different.

John Davis: Like selling jeans to people or what?

Chris Gammell: No, selling bicycles. Come on. It's like a step up for jeans. Oh, there you go.

John Davis: Well, at least you're going to get the good discounts, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah, exactly. But yeah, I was selling a book. So I really had no experience. And I still laugh with my parents today. I'm like, you guys were either, I don't know, temporarily insane or just really stupid. And I know that's not the case. They're smart people. But I'm like, why did you agree to do this? This was a horrible idea. This was awful. But yeah, it took me about three years, three solid years to figure out what the heck I was doing.

John Davis: Wow. Okay. Just because of the, like figuring out all the billing stuff or like, you mean the actual, like how to convince someone to do something and like use you as a provider?

Chris Gammell: Man, probably everything. I mean, I didn't, I remember telling, asking my dad when he was still working before he retired. I remember asking him at one point, I said, dad, how do we make money? This makes no sense. Like there's. I like money. There's all the, I like money, but how do we make, like, how does this work? And, uh, you know, to your, to the listeners, um, I mean, I am sure that I'm not the first person who's thought that like these random salespeople call you up, say we want to meet. They come in, they show you product, they leave, and somehow they're still employed and they take you to lunch every now and again. Yeah. Right. Right. Same people for. Yeah. So I knew none of that. And I actually didn't like even being called a salesperson. It was kind of embarrassing being a technical background. I was like, oh, oh, um, but how do you make money?

John Davis: Wait a second. Don't leave us hanging here.

Chris Gammell: Uh, well, uh, you still don't know, do you? I have no idea. They send these checks and we just, uh, you know, uh, do you want the, um, uh, I guess, do you want the, the aspirational answer? And, uh, or do you want the, like the nuts and bolts? Okay. Yeah. Well, uh, honestly, we make money because, uh, people see value in what we tell them and we happen to have products that help them fix issues. Okay.

John Davis: That sounds like a business answer though. Still. I mean, like what's, what's the actual mechanism? Is it like, so the term I've heard in the past is registrations. Is that something you have to deal with? Hmm.

Chris Gammell: Oh no, thankfully not. Uh, no, the, the, the nuts and bolts of it is, um, so say you as a company, uh, Chris Gammell, you place an order. Um, so you put a purchase order in with either a distributor in my territory or with the manufacturer directly. Um, at the end of the month, I get a reconciliation statement that says, all right, uh, Chris Gammell and these other, you know, 500 people placed orders. Um, this was their purchase order amount based on the contracts I have with my manufacturers. I get a, a small percentage of that. Um, I said small because now there's people out there who are, uh, like, uh, yeah, 50%, 90%. Oh, really?

John Davis: Wow.

Chris Gammell: Okay. Uh, no, no, no, no, no. I'm joking.

John Davis: Oh, you think people, you're saying people think that, but it's your, yeah, you're, oh, I see.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. No, I wish. Uh, so we get a percentage of that. Um, and, uh, yeah. Uh, so every month we get that statement and then we start tracking through and, um, we don't get paid until you pay your invoice. So you submit the purchase order. You probably have terms with the company. It's not 30, whatever. Um, 30 days elapses, you pay your invoice. And then 30 days after that we get paid. Right.

John Davis: So, I mean, like the, the closest analogy to me kind of sounds like, like a Amazon referral type thing, right? It's not a huge amount per transaction, but basically you're getting credit for bouncing people towards a solution that made money for the company. And then instead of like Amazon, again, in this case, instead of Amazon doing some kind of ad in this case, basically you are the ad and, and, you know, in a, in a sort of way. Right.

Chris Gammell: Uh, yeah, that's, that's a good way to think about it.

John Davis: Cool. I mean, that makes sense. I mean, like, and it's, and it's cheaper and more likely than ads. Cause the thing I always think about is like, how do you reach grumpy industrial person? Right. Is like, it's tough. Right. I mean, and I'm sure you could speak more to that too, of like, like the, how hard it is to reach people and just being there at the right time.

Chris Gammell: Like, well, yeah. And that, and that's really the core of it. I mean, I know the first answer I gave, it sounds like a, like a businessy type thing, but it's really the truth. I mean, you've been there before. You've been an engineer at, at a couple of companies and one industrial too. Like the last thing that anybody wants is to be bugged by a sales guy, um, or sale, I should say a salesperson. Um, I don't want to be bugged by salespeople. I hate salespeople. I am one. Um, you know, so the, uh, a lot of what we do on a day-to-day basis is just trying to figure out like, okay, um, make sure that people know we have, uh, things that can potentially solve tough issues. And when they need us be there immediately. And when they don't need us, don't plug the crap out of them.

John Davis: And that sounds right too. I mean, like, and I was actually really surprised. I was talking to someone out in the Bay area too. And he was talking about like, and this is someone who was doing, you know, large scale design in the millions of orders of units. And it was even like for plastics and stuff like that. Again, this is not the only way it happens, but this is just, it's kind of like, it's just a convenience option at a certain point. It's like you trust, you trust a salesperson, you trust a distributor, whatever you look what's on their sales card. It's, it's almost like a, like a pre-filter for what, you know, for someone that, you know, it's not, no guarantee that it'll work out, but it's, it's more likely than just like walking down the street in Shenzhen or calling people up down the street in Shenzhen. And, and, and, you know, like, it's just that, yeah, you're going to pay, you're going to pay a little bit more for it, but it's, it's pre-filtered.

Chris Gammell: That is a really good way of looking at it. I mean, the, the thing that I found out that drove me nuts when I first started doing this, because again, I was like this outsider. I didn't like being called a salesperson. I was like, you know, what, what is this? The thing that drove me nuts is that so much of this is relationship-based by this, I mean sales, but it's true. And why did that drive you nuts? Uh, so I may not have an engineering degree, but I have been told, uh, by, hey, by maybe, uh, my wife and other people that I, uh, act like an engineer. So, um, like if I can't quantify something or can't figure out how it works, it drives me nuts. So, and, and how do you quantify a relationship? Okay.

John Davis: No, no, I, I asked that because I used to get really upset at the whole, like, and I think I've said that on the show before, but like that idea of, oh, it's not what you know, it's who you know. Like that used to just make me so upset at a base level because it's like, well, that's not how it should work. And then, but later on, not only have I taken advantage of that a little bit of just, you know, building on a network and it's just that it's the, everyone's so busy. That's, and that's, that's really the base of it is that people are so busy that it's the, it's who, you know, is just being able to focus down in a time of stress. It feels like.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that, that's absolutely right. But yeah, and you know, it goes back to what you said about being a pre-filter. I think, I used to think that relationships are like, oh, you know, Chris will buy from Jim because Jim takes Chris out to lunch every week. And you like that, that seems stupid, right? It's inefficient. It's not, they're not, I used to think they're not buying the product because it's the best product.

John Davis: It used to feel like a kickback, right? It's like, oh, well, they're doing this for that one reason, but that's not, that's just a consequence. It feels like it's not, I mean, people have different feelings about this, but I think it's a consequence personally.

Chris Gammell: It, it, it is. Yeah. And what I, what I found out is that, yes, it's a consequence. And also, interestingly, even if Jim does take Chris out every week for lunch, Chris may buy from somebody else if that other person is adding better value to Chris.

John Davis: Yeah, I agree with that. Yeah. So, I mean, like, yeah, that's the thing, like, like that in that example, right? Jim, Jim is taking me out to lunch every week, but if he doesn't cover, you know, like the chip vendor that has the solution, then yeah, well, I'm not going to, you know, if it's a toss up, then maybe, who knows, right? But, and hopefully not, but it, the toss ups aren't really what make companies money, right? Commodity parts don't make companies money. It's, it's like the custom solutions with the higher, the higher margin that they want to really sell me anyways.

Chris Gammell: Right. Exactly. Yeah. Well, and, you know, it kind of goes, that kind of goes along with how things are going in general in engineering nowadays. I mean, the, the most successful sales organizations I see, and we try to do this too, we're not, they're not just showing up and selling something, right? Like, there is no manufacturer out there. None of my customers are saying, we are hiring so many engineers, we don't know what to do with them. Right, exactly. It's, it's, it's gotten down to like, there's that one, Chris, I see this every day. There's like that one guy. And, you know, that one guy is in charge of 50 machines, all of which are falling apart and throwing errors. And I'm not exaggerating. Frigging vacation once a, you know, a week per month, per year, right? Seriously, right? Yeah. And, you know, what we wind up doing most of the time is, you know, we do a lot of engineering for him or her. They'll, and, and that's a good relationship. I mean, they'll, they'll send something off and say, hey, I have this rough sketch. Can you please turn it into a design and then a quote and then just help, can you just help me with this?

John Davis: No, I think that's totally, and that's another thing that's interesting to me from the, I would file that under the things they don't, things they don't tell you in school, right? It's like, you know, you think you go, I went to school personally. I went to school thinking like, oh, well, I'm going to make all these custom solutions. I'm going to get so many like patents. And like, you know, some people do. And that's fine. But like, the reality is that a company is not going to hire enough engineers to have someone sitting around and dreaming up the next big thing. They, like most of the time, like my old boss used to say, R&D companies are usually little R, big D, right? So it's, it's a lot of development. It's not as much research. There are some big research companies, but the ones that are doing lots of development, you just need to get an answer. You just need to get out the door. And that's, that's the hard part, in my opinion.

Chris Gammell: Oh, big time. Yeah. Uh, somebody once asked me why, um, you know, as a software guy, it drives me nuts that, uh, industry still uses ladder logic. Oh, yeah. We'll get into that. Everything is. Oh, yeah. Yeah. And, you know, somebody asked me, I said, why, why do you still use ladder logic? And I said, you know why we use ladder logic? Uh, so that, uh, so that the guy who went to like three weeks of technical training can program the multimillion dollar machine. And you can pick that guy from any technical school in the U S and that's also a reason everybody uses Alan Bradley too. But, you know, it's, uh, that's why there's no technical reason for it. There's nothing. It's just, uh, it doesn't matter about the solution or the, or the, or how you get to the solution. Um, it just, if you know it.

John Davis: No, that makes a ton of sense. Uh, what is, well, maybe we should just get right to ladder logic. What is ladder logic? This is going to be like shifting focus a little way from sales and more into the industrial space. It feels like, but. Sure. Yep.

Chris Gammell: Oh boy. Well, let me tell you son. Oh yeah. Right. Right. Yeah. You know what grinds my gears. So ladder logic. Uh, ladder, ladder logic is, uh, the best example of what happens when you let a holdover, um, never go away. Uh, so, uh, back in the day, which predates me significantly, um, back in the day, um, industrial control was done using relay logic. So, uh, yeah, imagine like a giant, uh, literally giant control panel full of clickety clack relays. And, uh, these relays were switching. I mean, all the control voltage was usually a line voltage as well, which is very safe. Uh, so.

John Davis: The techs I used to know, they said, yeah, 120 just tickles, you know? Our Aussie and European friends of course cannot say that, but yeah, they, uh, you know, they don't have 120 there or they don't use 120.

Chris Gammell: Hey, my dad worked with a guy at an old, uh, uh, I was, um, GM supplier, big one. I can't remember the name of, of who it was, but either way, uh, let's just say GM. And, uh, the guy was a human, uh, multimeter. He, uh, he swore to my dad that he could tell by putting his hand up real close to a bus bar, whether or not something was a 220 or 480. And my dad's like, yeah, you know, bullshit. It looks at the back of the guy's hand. It's like all calloused. And he tested it and it was true. Oh my God. Anyways. So, uh, ladder logic.

John Davis: To tell 110, you gotta use your tongue, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It just tickles. Yep. So, uh, ladder logic. Imagine you have all these relays in a panel. Um, ladder logic. Uh, if you drew out those relays, um, on a piece of paper and how they interconnect and how they literally the logic behind the relays, uh, that is ladder logic. Like if you open up a modern PLC programming environment, like a studio 5,000, uh, or Siemens people. Yeah. Until we're John. We'll decide John falls on here, right?

John Davis: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're America, Chris. Come on. No, Bradley. Apple pie. But, uh, yeah. Uh, so yeah, if you, if you draw that, um, you know, that, that's ladder logic. So if you open up a modern programming environment, uh, it literally is a graphical programming environment that looks exactly like. A ladder. It's a ladder. So.

John Davis: You had to close one before you open another. That's all. That's a, that's the rule I remember.

Chris Gammell: Is that right? Or is it open? Sorry.

John Davis: Open before close, right? It's a open. Yeah. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yes. Although, you know, like any good IDE, they all hold your hands now. Right. Thank God. Right. Right. Right.

Chris Gammell: So.

John Davis: Yeah. And that's interesting. Like, and the thing that boggles my mind about this is like, this is production facilities. This is, you know, like, like even like the big stuff, like, like car manufacturing. Right. I mean, like, this is like, you have conveyor belts, you have all these things that are just like big industrial machines. It's just switches and, you know, like lining things up like that. If someone was doing software, like, like you, you know, you, you've done right. It would be like, it would be like if statements. Right. But, uh, that's a little too much to maintain sometimes as well.

Chris Gammell: Well, you know, uh, yeah, it would be a big state machine is, is what it is. And, um, and you can still do, okay. In theory, you can use, um, uh, software design patterns, uh, in ladder logic in practice, you have no idea how much really bad code is running really. Right. Yeah, exactly. It is. Yeah.

John Davis: It gives yourself in a corner case and you're really, I mean, that's the thing. It's like the simplicity is almost like a feature in some cases. Right.

Chris Gammell: But yeah. Yeah. Oh yeah.

John Davis: Yep. Sort of. Well, yeah, of course you can't, I mean, you can't make it super extensible. You can't do all this other stuff. You can't take advantage of modern things, but you can also look at, you can open, open it up and, and someone who's done it before can tell pretty easy without like, without telling how your, uh, your code, you know, style is written. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And, and there's been attempts to, to modernize it. Um, and there's been attempts to move away from it too. I mean, if you really want to, you can program and a structured text, uh, instead of ladder logic, but I mean, the vast majority of code that's out there is, uh, all ladder logic for sure. And a lot of it's running on really old hardware, a very ruggedly built hardware. Right. Right.

John Davis: Yeah. I mean, like, well, I've, I think I've stated before, like I used to, I used to replace, I was working on redesigning hardware that was in the field for 30 years. I mean, like, yeah, at ABB, like there was just old, old stuff, but it, it was designed to keep going, you know, like, and it's not, it's, it wasn't super fancy either. You know what I mean? Like it wasn't like the needs are a lot less than people think or that I thought.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I would agree with that. I mean, I was at a place that makes, um, well, uh, you asked earlier what kind of place I go to, uh, I was at a place that makes fiberglass. Um, like the stuff you put in your house, which is a great environment for electronics, by the way. Wonderful. Right, right, right, right, right.

John Davis: Um, but, uh, well, it is glass that's insulating, but it's, you know, I wouldn't think it's great for breathing though.

Chris Gammell: No, you know, the, yeah, the lungs get really upset about that. Um, but, uh, yeah. And they, they just replaced, uh, uh, now I'm a whole self-conscious about my Rockwell, uh, uh, leanings here, but they just replaced a, uh, Alan Bradley PLC2 and that PLC2, uh, the last time the battery was replaced was 1994. It was made in like 1980, uh, I don't know, uh, before I was born, let's say. And, uh. 94 was 25 years ago next year.

John Davis: Like, that's, that's insane. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And, uh, you know, this thing. That makes me feel old. Yeah, right. This thing weighs like, it's, you know, it's a 60 pound chassis with like 16 gauge steel as the case on it. And it's all 120 volt and it's all through hole components. And like, yeah, we didn't replace it because it died. We replaced it because, uh, uh, AB is trying to get us to, uh, replace these cause they don't want to support them anymore. So the price, like the unit price on them is astronomically high. And that's the only reason I took it out. Yeah.

John Davis: Using market conditions to, to, you know, force upgrades. Oh yeah. Yeah, for sure.

Chris Gammell: Hmm.

John Davis: That's crazy. Well, let's talk about upgrading again in the industrial space. I mean, can, can you kind of explain, I guess, explain junk, you just didn't explain all of industrial, uh, that's kind of a, a big task, but we, you were talking before the show too, of like, they are trying to modernize stuff and there's like all of these quasi new communication mechanisms and all that stuff. Like, what are you, what are you seeing in the industrial world these days? That's exciting. That is, needs to be fixed still. Like, what are you seeing that's out there?

Chris Gammell: Oh man. Um, well, as you know, anybody who looks at the news nowadays, um, if they know that automation is a key, which happens to be great for us, cause that's literally in our name. But, um, yeah, I mean the, the big thing. Okay. If there's, I'm assuming that people listening, they, they probably don't have a huge amount of, uh, firsthand experience with, with manufacturing in the U S or, or manufacturing in any first world country for that matter, at least like really hands-on. Um, you know, we still do manufacture a lot of stuff here. Not, not all manufacturing has gone to, uh, uh, you know, a lower cost place. So, uh. Especially like big, heavy stuff too, right? Oh, sure. Because that transportation costs go crazy and. Yep. Yep. And, and as it turns out, I mean, you guys know this, you talk about all the time on the show, it is really hard to manufacture some things and you've got to have it close by so you can do quality control and, and all that. Um, and you know, the only way to be competitive, uh, uh, to be competitive in manufacturing here or in Germany, uh, which is another high cost area.

John Davis: Which is, yeah. I mean, they're, they're killing it lately. Oh yeah. I mean, they've just been like, their surpluses are through the roof.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yeah. They're, they're doing a great job. Um, the only way to manufacture efficiently is to have a huge amount of output, uh, and automate like crazy. I mean, that's what you got to do. And, um, you know, so we're trying to catch up with that, uh, industry knows it's behind it. They're trying to catch up with that too. But you know, the kind of the, uh, tenuous relationship, I guess, between progress and industry is that, you know, if you're, um, like in software, if you're, if you're doing, let's say you're building a, like a website or something, right. If you make a mistake and the website goes down for an hour, it's like really not that big of a deal. Uh, unless you're somebody really big like Amazon or whatever. And even then it's, I mean, eh, you know.

John Davis: There are, yeah. Well, it hits your bottom line, but it doesn't, it doesn't break anything, you know?

Chris Gammell: Hey, you see where I'm going with this. Like there.

John Davis: Yes, I do.

Chris Gammell: There is a. We're going to talk about steel. Oh yeah. Well, steel, automotive, any of that stuff. I mean, I was at a place and I, I remember this number well, because when they told it to me after I picked my jaw up off the floor, uh, I was like, you guys got to be pulling my chain. Like there's no way. I was at a place, a big manufacturing automotive place. Um, and they told me that per minute of downtime, it was $7,500 per minute. Yeah. So when.

John Davis: I mean, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Well, you know, the, the way that they run, if, um, you know, this line goes down, they literally send the plant home and there's, you know, uh, 2,200 people at this plant. So if this line goes down, 2,200 people go home and they stop production period. So like for the day, for the Intel comes back up. Wow. Yeah.

John Davis: And they still get paid. Uh, yeah, yeah. They probably still get paid. Yeah. Yeah. Right. It's like union too. Right. I mean like, yeah. Wow. Yeah. Holy crap. Yeah. So that's, I was just doing the math too. That's this 450,000 an hour.

Chris Gammell: That's, that's insane. Oh, it's nuts. Right.

John Davis: Okay.

Chris Gammell: So, you know, the kind of the, the pool between it, when you hear about, um, you know, IOT and, and even, um, uh, simple things like networking machines. So they're faster, uh, industry just moves slowly because the consequences of making a mistake, uh, are huge. Like, you know, Mark Zuckerberg says, move fast and break things. No, no, no, no, no, no. You don't want to do that in industry. Um, but on a, you know, you still have to progress and you have to, you have to, or else

John Davis: Zuckerberg. I don't think that was Zuckerberg. I think that was someone else. I, I don't know. But I, I understand the, uh, just to cut off the, you know, the commenters. Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Yep. Exactly. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And that's, and that's a really good point too, because like, it, it almost feels like a cashflow thing as much as anything else. Right. Like, like all the maintenance activities that I've ever been involved with in the, like industrial facilities I was at, they were always at night, you know, like, or you, you had multiple lines and then you did have that restriction of like, if you went from two lines down to one, because you were upgrading one of them and then, uh, you know, then if your one line goes down, now you're really screwed. Right. I mean, it's like that. Yeah. Yeah. That there, there are high costs of, of switching.

Chris Gammell: Well, yeah. Yeah. And, and no, again, I was naive when I started this, but you kind of assume like, oh man, like this is the, I'm always going to have hamburger buns. Like I've been to a giant hamburger bun factory, uh, cause you got to make them someplace. And, um, you know, I think you're always going to have hamburger buns and you go to the hamburger bun place. You ask them how many hamburger buns do you make? And they say, well, we make, you know, I'm not exaggerating a million hamburger buns a day. Oh, okay. Like what percentage of like the U S you know, daily consumption of hamburger buns is that and they're like, well, you know, for the region, cause you can only ship them so far. That's, you know, X and X percent. So you think about it and you're like, okay, so if you're, if your production goes down, like we'll run out of hamburger buns in like three days.

John Davis: Like, Oh yeah. Like the whole Justin time. Oh yeah. Like Hanban type stuff, like all that Toyota production system stuff too. Right.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yep. So it's just crazy. I mean, it's, um, yeah, the scale of it and it's, it's just nuts, but they are trying to modernize.

John Davis: I'm going to eat hamburgers, John. Come on. I get it. Like I need to, this isn't going to work. That's right. Yeah. No, I mean like, and I think you're right too. Like, like that's the stuff that I feel like that's the stuff that's invisible. Like the things that I always think about for industrial, I knew someone who was doing like tinning fact or canning factories, I suppose, you know, it was like tin cans, putting like foodstuffs into those insulated tin cans that get, you know, labeled and everything like that. Like, that's a huge business that I never thought about, but only cause I had a family friend who did that or, uh, like the, like just generally food. I always think about, um, shampoo production too. Like, I mean, like I know that like the chemical production is, is its own kind of mega industry, but, uh, but then like even just the putting into bottles and shipping it out and all that stuff, like there's just a ton of stuff that consumables happen every day. And it's usually within a certain area because there's so many people needing it throughout the world, throughout the states even.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's right. And actually, uh, you know, if anybody out there is looking for a career employment and all that, the, um, I'll tell you what, uh, keep an eye out for, uh, manufacturing, engineering jobs, controls, engineers, uh, electrical engineers, all that stuff. Because I, I mean, nobody looks at Ohio, Michigan, Kentucky, Indiana, uh, Western Pennsylvania and says, I want to move there. That's the, that's the best place, right? But you know, the starting salaries that I hear because nobody can find anyone. Everybody, it seems is rushing to the, the sexier jobs and locations. And I mean, for the amount of money they're offering, that's a great living in Cleveland, Ohio. Let me tell you. So yeah.

John Davis: Yeah. Right. And I lived in Cleveland for 15 years. Like I did move, but like, I, I like Cleveland too. Like there's, there's some good stuff there and good people there. So yeah. Um, yeah. And, and like you're saying, I think the other crazy thing is that, that thing that I always talk about on the show is there's this wave of people that are getting ready to retire. They're not quite there yet. They're, you know, the grizzled old, you know, plant guy anyways, like he's probably going to work as long as he can just cause that's his MO. But like, but eventually he's going to retire and there's a lot of them in the baby boomers. Maybe you could talk about the general persona that you encounter on a daily basis.

Chris Gammell: Hey, are you grumpy? Do you like coffee? Well, you're right. Then I have the job. You have a mustache. You have a mustache. Yeah. No, it's, it's true. Like, um, you know, there are not a lot of people going into these jobs and in terms of, uh, personas, um, you know, I, at most of the people that I deal with are probably in their fifties, uh, probably the youngest would be, uh, late forties. So, you know, there, there's a lot to be done there. And from an engineering perspective, it's well, I, I'm going to put fun in scare quotes because when you get a phone call at four in the morning, um, that's

John Davis: not fun, but, uh, lying down is never fun, right? No.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. But, uh, I mean, the stuff you get to work on a good day, when you get to upgrade things,

John Davis: you think about upgrading things, you have budget to upgrade things.

Chris Gammell: That's, that's not bad. Oh man. Yeah. And there is nothing, nothing will put a smile on your face more than hitting a button that makes something big happen. Like, like an arc strike or a, uh, you know, whatever, or a Presco. That stuff's awesome. Yeah. It's awesome.

John Davis: Right. There's a story, uh, uh, Sam, uh, one of the guys who used to write for me for, uh, uh, engineer blogs. Yeah. He has a post about the reason he made this, uh, big red button light switch. And it was a story about him, like being at a factory and the lady looks at him and she says, do you want to push the button? He's like, yeah, how'd you know? And she goes, all the little boys want to push the button. Yeah. Well, you know, what are you, I don't know if it was derogatory or not, but it was, it's, I like, I, if I was staring at a button panel, it's like, yeah, I want to push the button

Chris Gammell: there. You know, like, that's great. It is so true. There's nothing more satisfying than hitting a button and hearing like the big wump or feeling like a big wump. Like, oh yeah, that's awesome.

Speaker ?: Yeah.

John Davis: I mean, yeah, it's like, I mean, if people want to make an electronics example, it's, it's the changing your environment. It's, you know, if it's an Arduino, you're blinking an LED. If it's a steel plant, you're, you know, starting up steel plant facilities. Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. Wow. Uh, okay. So what about the, um, so, you know, you, you deal with people doing either crisis work or greenfield work, but like, what is, what is the percentage? I mean, like how much are people maintaining versus designing new stuff? Right. Because you said people are trying to upgrade for efficiencies and stuff like that. Like what is, what is the split?

Chris Gammell: Um, most of the stuff I get involved in is, uh, incremental upgrades. We, every now and again, we'll, we'll see a capital project where you like tear out, you know, entire control system and put something new in. But for the most part, it's incremental upgrades. Um, the big truck.

John Davis: If you don't mind me asking too, is this, is this tied to the nature of your business? Like, because I know you're a rep, but you also were like, would they go straight to like a Rockwell or whoever, if they were doing like a really big thing or is that, uh. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And actually, uh, something to check out. Uh, um, so there's, there's something called the Rockwell and compass program. And, uh, you know, quick, uh, quick note on Rockwell. The reason I keep mentioning Rockwell is in the U S they, they, they pretty much own the controls market. So from PLCs, programmable logic controllers, all the way down to push buttons. I mean, Rockwell, they, they pretty much own the market. There, there are other players like Siemens, IDEC, Omron, uh, uh, Schneider, um, Schneider group. Uh, but I mean, they're all fighting over the last, you know, 15 to 20% of the market. Um, so if I keep referencing Alan Bradley, it's not a personal favorite. It's just the reality of the situation, but either way. Uh, so the reason that's important is, uh, my rep firm, um, a while ago, we structured ourselves so that we only sell encompass partner products. And the encompass program. Yeah. It's like Rockwell's, uh, third party vendor program basically. So yeah, we get brought in, we work with the Rockwell distributor channel. Um, and, uh, basically, you know, the customer goes, uh, goes to the distributor and says, Hey, we want to upgrade our, uh, marble making line. We have one of those. Uh, we want to upgrade our marble making line.

John Davis: That's cool.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Uh, can, um, can you come in and help us? The Rockwell distributor helps spec stuff. And then all the stuff that we sell are like the extra bits and bobs that, uh, yeah. Like the other stuff that makes it work.

John Davis: Right. And then there's, I mean, there is a catalog around like, what do they need to plug into it? But that's where you come in and you kind of say, well, this has this advantage that has that advantage. Right.

Chris Gammell: Exactly.

John Davis: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Do some light duty engineering forum, uh, that type of thing.

Speaker ?: Yep.

John Davis: Yeah. No, that's great. That's great. Okay. Yeah. So, so that means that you are in on Greenfield stuff too. So that's, that's an interesting point. I just wanted to make sure that that was not indicative of the business types, you know?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, no, no. Um, yep. And, uh, you know, we should mention at some point, uh, I don't know if you're going to get into the, the more technology side of it, but industrial networks, that's kind of a neat thing that, uh, I don't think. Yeah.

John Davis: I think that some of that is just like the upgrade process too. Right. Because like you're saying, like, like for, well, at least in my experience, right. I, I've been at places where the old, the old, uh, way that things were done was, yeah, there was control panel, but the only intelligence in that system was an operator. Right. It was the meat controller. Right. It was the person pushing a button looking. Is it done? Yes, it is. Press the other button or, you know, do the thing, pull the lever, whatever. Right. And like that person is expensive and they're harder to find, especially in, you know, we're all Ohio. So yeah. Yeah. Uh, I'm sure that there are upgrades to, you know, it's not always negative. Sometimes it's just, I can't find a person. I gotta, I gotta upgrade, you know?

Chris Gammell: Well, yeah. Yeah. Uh, I had a guy tell me once, uh, we were talking about upgrading his machine to a networked machine. And he, he looked at me, he says, son. I said, yes. He says, 20, 24 volts. Don't lie on an input. But he said, I don't know about that ethernet. It's like, uh.

John Davis: You and your fiddly bits and your wave forms, you know? Yeah. He's not wrong. I mean, like, yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh, I, I found like four to 20 controller, uh, like, uh, you know, four to 20 controllers, like that, that kind of stuff. It goes over long distances. There's a lot of, there's a reason that some of this stuff sticks around. I'll just say that. How about that?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. There, there is. But if, if I can, uh, gush like a nerd for a minute, one of the really interesting things that's out there right now, um, these industrial networks that, uh, they're part of the application layer. So they, they're on ethernet. Um, but they're, uh, and they use some components of TCP IP, uh, but they're also UDP, uh, but they're a totally different application layer. And, um, you know, the best way to describe it is, uh, like, uh, you guys have talked to software people before, like embedded, uh, software engineers, or if you listen to, uh, embedded, uh, dot FM, they're always talking about too. Uh, you know, we talk about real-time systems on a small scale. So you have your microprocessor, you design it to be real-time with like a real-time operating system or, you know, whatever. Right. The, the state of the art.

John Davis: Reacts really quickly to a thing, right?

Chris Gammell: Exactly. And it's, it's, uh, it's deterministic too. So, you know, if thing happens, yeah. Time X point one, you know, thing two is going to happen at time X point two. Yeah. So, um, one of the neat things in industry is that, uh, you know, they've taken that concept of real-time operation and made it like, you know, when we're talking about real-time on a board, we're talking about what, a couple of centimeters, maybe of distance with the networks. Now you can do, I'm not joking, like two miles of distance and still have a real-time system. It's insane. And, uh, it's all stuff that- Wait, but why would you want to do that though? Ah, cause, uh, steel mills are really long.

John Davis: Oh, interesting. Okay. Yeah. I mean, there's always safety stuff too, but yeah, that's a really good point. So what, you have like a control room that, that is the brains of the operation, but then it's sending signals. Why wouldn't you push the control to a local node though?

Chris Gammell: Uh, you, okay. So you do. And, and, you know, if you look at the hierarchy and this is where, uh, this is the fun stuff of controls engineering and an industrial scale. So you start laying out your, uh, uh, your control schematic for, uh, you know, what are your, your varying types of real time, right? If you're doing servo motor control, yeah, you're going to have a controller that's within, let's say 10 to 20 meters of whatever your, um, uh, you know, uh, motion point is, but that can be controlled upstream by, uh, like DCS is a term that's sometimes just like distributed control system.

John Davis: That's what I used to work on. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So like, like, like a DCS or even, um, you know, like a big PLC system that is, uh, you know, a half mile away in the control room with a capital C, uh, could be commanding that servo drive. Like, Hey, I've got slack in the steel web down at, you know, a half mile away at one end of the plant, you know, servo drive on the take up, uh, on the other end, uh, you need to start pulling a little bit harder. So I'm going to tell you, you need to pull harder, but, uh, and that needs to be sequenced with what's going on the other end, but locally that's using its own real time network to communicate with the servo motor and the other servo drives to make sure that's all coordinated. They're reporting back. So, yeah.

John Davis: Right. So the servo control is actually at the local node, right? It's like saying it's sending the step commands or not the step commands. It's getting the feedback. It's, it's driving the current and all this stuff through the servo specifically. But you're saying that like the good, like a higher, higher abstracted command of like spin instead of a thousand RPMs, go 2000 RPMs. That's kind of the difference, right? You got it. And that's done from the remote thing, but it still needs to be fast enough that it can cover that distance. Is that the idea? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, you know, it's also a heck of a lot cheaper to run a fiber line, um, from the control room than to run a ginormous bundle of a cable and have to deal with voltage drop on digital and analog IO and all that crazy stuff. So, um, so yeah, a lot of that giant cable.

John Davis: Oh, so they used to actually send that in the old days you're saying.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah, man. Uh, giant conduits. Yeah. Oh yeah. Got it. Got it. Got it.

John Davis: Okay. Interesting. Okay. Yeah. I mean, like we used to do stuff where we would have, we would have like a local cabinet. There'd be, there'd be a controller in there. Like it would be, you know, like a PLC effectively, right? A little bit, usually a little bit more beefy, but then that would be controlling the local IO. Usually if, if like you had an analog sensor that told you the position of the servo, then it would also be reading it locally and reacting to that and then pushing it back to, like then pushing it back out locally to a, to the drive circuit. But right. But then, uh, the central system is actually sending the update commands to say, to, to change that actual control mechanism. That's the whole idea, right?

Chris Gammell: You got it. Yep. That's right. Yeah.

John Davis: Okay. Yeah. And I mean, and that, that's kind of a microcosm that maybe we should have started with this, but like the whole idea of like a program of logic control is basically that small system by itself. Right. Yep. It's like, just, you have a thing, you have an input, you react to that input, you do something as a result of that.

Chris Gammell: Correct. Yep. And do it in an ordered fashion. Uh, real time. If you want to use that term, uh, you know, whatever.

John Davis: Right. Yeah. I mean, real time is relative, right? I mean, like it is, you know, at human scale, the faster than human scale, probably, but like, yeah, it's, you're not waiting for, uh, you know, your network processing to finish, right? It's just, it just does the thing within a certain time span.

Chris Gammell: That that's right. And there are different types of real time too. Like a hard real time would be like, uh, when you're launching a rocket, you really, really want that to happen. Not only in order, but at a certain time. Uh, whereas, you know, if your server drives off by a couple of milliseconds, that's, that's not that big of a deal.

John Davis: Yeah. Right. That's interesting.

Speaker ?: Yeah.

John Davis: Okay. So, so like, uh, you, you mentioned networking, like, so are you seeing all the different standards that are out there? Cause I mean, I used to get to ask questions about these, but I didn't know what they were, but like, so it feels like some industries kind of have different terms.

Chris Gammell: Uh, yeah. So the big ones, um, and, and, you know, this has changed quickly. Uh, but the, I would say the, the big three are, uh, Ethernet IP and IP is not internet protocol. IP is industrial protocol, totally different than, uh, like TCP IP. Don't get them confused. Ethernet IP.

John Davis: But they still use Cat5, uh, connectors, don't they? Uh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's fine. Yeah. Uh, Cat7, Cat7 now.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

John Davis: Oh yeah. Okay. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

John Davis: Yeah. Just plug it in though. And you think like, oh, it's just going to do this thing. It's like, oh, not really. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Uh, well, uh, yeah. And, uh, let's hope they use shielded cables. Uh, people still nowadays, yeah, whatever. You're just lying when you say noise. No, no, seriously. I'm shielded cables. Yeah. Right. Uh, yeah. So Ethernet IP is usually found in, uh, Allen Bradley, uh, Rockwell systems. Uh, Profinet is what you'll find in, uh, Siemens systems. And then, uh, kind of the, uh, the third party, let's call it open source guy. Um, I don't know if that's actually true. They're all technically open source, but, uh.

John Davis: It feels like it's a lot of closed source in the industry, but yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. They haven't gotten there yet, but, uh, is EtherCat, which is a very interesting protocol. Very neat one.

John Davis: Yeah. Yeah. So now that is all in the Ethernet stack, or at least of the, the networking stack of like plugging different controllers together and kind of tying node to node to node. Right. But then I also, what's the one mod bus, what's mod bus, like what level is that at?

Chris Gammell: Oh, sure. So mod bus, uh, would be, so the three that I just mentioned are all, um, Ethernet. So if you looked in a control cabinet, you would see a bunch of Ethernet switches and, you know, cat five, six, seven cable. It looks like an IT, uh, you know, room and it all is interchangeable. I mean, there's nothing special about the switches. Like they still use the OSI layer, you know, all that stuff. Um, mod bus, uh, is a serial protocol. Uh, so like RS, yeah. RS 45. Uh, in fact, I think you'd need to be 45 to use mod bus. Uh, could be wrong about that, but yeah.

John Davis: But you can also have a lot of hardware, kind of like the low level pieces.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

John Davis: I've seen so many of these, like the, you know, there's always a TM at the end. You know what I mean? Like there's all these different industrial protocols that like, it just gets really, it gets confusing for me.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. No, uh, mod bus may be closer to the hardware. Um, I don't know. It's not used that much anymore. I mean, they do have a version now that of course can be used over Ethernet. It's called mod bus, uh, TCP, uh, same data structure. They just encapsulate it within, uh, Ethernet, but, um, but yeah.

John Davis: Yep. Uh, so you see, but people are adding this stuff. I mean, like you're saying on updates and stuff like that, people are networking things together in order to get better efficiencies, better timing, stuff like that.

Chris Gammell: Oh, big time. Yeah, absolutely. Yep. That's the future of where things are going for sure. Yeah.

John Davis: Okay. Well, let's get to your stuff here then. So then, so you're, you run Paul Davis automation. That's your, that's your company and your day job and your, your, your moneymaker. Uh, but you also do three ML, right? And this is, this is actually, so John is one of my former students as well. Uh, you design electronics and you are basically making your own industrial electronics. Uh, I was very impressed when you came to me cause I was like a software salesperson who builds products while that's a crazy amount of time to do stuff. The fact that you like, you literally know what people need and like that felt magical. Uh, so tell us about that.

Chris Gammell: Oh, it's, there's so much magic, Chris. It's just, let me tell you. Yeah.

John Davis: Just, just magic all over the place.

Chris Gammell: It's magic all over. Yeah. Uh, no. So, um, yeah, you know, owning a business, I'm always looking for ways to, uh, make the business more, uh, businessy. Is that technical? More money. You just say more money. There we go. You like money. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, yeah. Employees want paid. It's a really weird thing. Yeah. Who knows? But, um, so, uh, one of the, so quick, quick note for any engineers out there who are looking to go to the dark side of sales. Um, one of the cool things about it is that you get to see everything. Uh, I, you know, I, not only do I see different companies, I get to see everybody's problems. I get to see how they're similar. I get to see how they're different. Um, I get to see what other companies are doing, how they do things. I mean, it's, it's really cool because there's a lot of similarities, but a lot of differences too.

John Davis: If you don't want to make the sale, you can tell them they're idiots. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Chris Gammell: Like, why are you doing that, man? You're dumb. You're morons. Yeah. Yeah. Right. So, so the, uh, the point beyond 3ML was to, uh, capitalize on that and say, all right, if I can, um, you know, if I can find some problems, uh, it, in this industry and in, in industry in general, it doesn't, I mean, you don't, one of the nice things is you don't have to manufacture, you know, a million of something to make a viable business. I'm not kidding when you can say you can manufacture 10,000 of something a year, even maybe 5,000, maybe a hundred of something.

John Davis: You should tell me, you should talk about this too. Cause you've told me about this, uh, the people who do that.

Chris Gammell: Well, yeah. I mean, there is such a clear line between value and, uh, problem solving, uh, in this business. I mean, it's not like, you know, to pick on IOT a little bit, it's like, oh, look, it's another internet connected light switch, which doesn't add much value to begin with potentially. Right. Um, with this, it's like, Hey, I'm giving you a product or I'm designing you a product that can save time. I mean, it's real, real dollars.

John Davis: You just, you just do it in percentages, right? You say, I'm going to save you $50 million next year. This costs 5 million. If you don't do this, you're an idiot. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. You don't have to say that of course, but like, that's the implication, right? That's well, I mean, you can put it on a chart and make them, uh, or let them come to conclusions about that. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. But, uh, yeah, I mean, it is not, um, I mean, there, there are, there are companies out there. I know who make products, uh, electronic products where the bill material costs is probably, uh, let's say $500. Uh, well now bill material is probably less than that and add in, you know, labor and all that. And it's probably, yeah, the, uh, cost of goods sold, right? Yep. Yep. And it's probably 500, 600 bucks. Right. And they're selling it for $2,500 to $3,000, uh, if not more. And at first, man, well, you, you might be saying like, oh, you know, they're raking their customers over the coals, but no, I like the problems that they solve and then the support that they offer. I mean, it's, it is so much better than selling something that costs a dollar.

John Davis: Well, yeah, I mean, there's that, but that's on a personal basis too. I, I think, I think the way that I always look at it is like, what's the alternative for that company, right? That company is willing to pay three grand per whatever. Right. And, and you might say, oh, someone might say like, oh, well, that's not right to do that. You should just mark up the bond. But however, what is their alternative? Like they hire someone, that person then goes and designs a solution, whatever. If there is a solution that was cheaper, they would obviously go to something cheaper. Right. It's like just a market thing, I think personally. So.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Well, and you know, I think that's one of the pitfalls that, um, uh, engineers who start companies fall into. I've, I've seen it firsthand and I've done it too, with some of the three ML products you go, okay, yeah, I'm just going to mark up that bomb. And, uh, you know, you find yourself not making any money after 12 months and you're going, why?

John Davis: Well, especially because it's like a very specified solution, right? If it's very, if it's the more niche it is, the, the fewer customers are too. And so you had to spend more time on something that you can't sell for much.

Chris Gammell: Right. Exactly. That's right. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. So mark up your product people. It's, it's not a bad profit is not a four letter word.

John Davis: Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

John Davis: I agree with that. I mean, like, I think it's, and it enables you to, well, we don't need to debate the, the merits of, of charging more for your business. Uh, okay. So, well, so what did you decide to build, um, for you?

Chris Gammell: Ah, so, uh, so the first thing, um, was an industrial interface for the Raspberry Pi, uh, which, um, there's actually a few out there, which is kind of cool, uh, at some very large companies doing data collection. Uh, and that's what most of these products do. Uh, most of the products that we make, um, are involved in industrial data collection in one form or another. So yeah, there, there was the, uh, industrial Raspberry Pi. Uh, it's not really a hat. It's more like a, like a module, let's call it. Uh, and then it's got more connectors and stuff like that.

John Davis: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. Uh, and then, um, an Arduino, uh, uh, board, I guess that, uh, basically turns an Arduino into a very dense, uh, data collection node, if you will, meant to communicate back to like a, like a master, for example.

John Davis: Cool. Well, that's great. And, uh, I mean, what's, I mean, I think when you told me about this too, you had said that there's more people that are like either on the factory floor, just looking to get data out, right? They don't want to necessarily buy a full scale, you know, industrial system. They just need to do that one thing. So that seemed like one, one of, one of the use cases, but the other one was just people that are already comfortable in, in this kind of more makery type solutions that are fine for the job. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And I mean, there's, there's big, um, you know, there, all of the big players have their data collection systems for analytics. And, uh, you know, the big buzzword there is industry 4.0.

John Davis: Um, yeah, I'd love to hear, no, I don't want to hear about the 1.2, 1.2, 2.3 point, whatever.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. But, uh, you know, a lot of people, my big hypothesis in doing this was that, uh, when I look at university programs now, or even like tech school programs, uh, a lot of those people are using single board computers. It doesn't have to be a Raspberry Pi to do, uh, experiments. Um, I mean, I've sold a couple to universities where they're doing, uh, sampling programs, motion control labs, you know, that type of thing. Eventually there's going to be some, uh, you know, you know, crossover from that into the industrial world. Uh, these are never going to replace a PLC from Siemens or around Bradley.

John Davis: They're not intended to, but you're not willing to support them to that level either. I'm sure.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. And it also looks really bad when, when the machine is smoking and you destroy the car or something and, uh, you say, well, uh, that Raspberry Pi I put in there, we saved like $500. Yeah, exactly. Right. Right. Yeah. That's like the opposite of paying for a solution, right? Yeah, exactly. But you know, if you know, um, if you know a little bit of Python, um, and you know a little bit of HTML and CSS, you can make a pretty neat system for, uh, quickly and for not that much money either.

John Davis: Right. And it also allows you to not just plug an industrial output into your Raspberry Pi, which is something people should never do. If you don't know that already, you're welcome. Oh, good Lord. No. Yeah. But people, I mean, like people do that. They're like, oh, it's just an IO. So it's just an IO. It's like, don't do that. No. Yeah. Yeah. It's just an IO, but it's also 24. What was that guy saying? 24 volts.

Chris Gammell: 20, 24 volts. Yep. 24 volts that, uh, you know, can. You just know what's happening. Yeah. You just know what's happening. Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's not on until it's at 24 volts and, uh, 750 milliamps. Then it's on, son. Right. Huh. Yeah. You ain't wrong.

John Davis: You ain't wrong.

Chris Gammell: You ain't wrong.

John Davis: Yeah. Well, so we also talked about before the show of, uh, you know, like, so obviously, uh, IOT is a swear word, uh, you know, but in the industrial world, it like, so it's a, it's a, it's a solution looking for a problem. Right. But in the industrial world, it feels like an actual problem. Right. I mean, are you seeing, are you seeing this on a daily to day basis or what?

Chris Gammell: Uh, yeah, I would say one of, uh, in 10 years, if, uh, IOT actually still exists, it'll be an industry. I mean, cause it's just such a, you know, what, what is IOT? IOT is giving somebody, uh, data or access to a system that is not hard or that is hard to get to or not nearby. Right. And there are plenty of those in, in industrial environment. Like I really don't want to climb up on top of that tower when it's like, you know, negative 10 up there with 50 mile an hour wind and it's snowing. I really don't want to do that. So if I can stick a sensor up there and have it, you know, talk over whatever, um, back to a system and I can remotely troubleshoot it, collect data, whatever. That's awesome. Like that's a huge win. Huge win.

John Davis: Right. And I, I think the, the other thing being that there's an actual, like a line you can draw back from having a sensor there. It's not, you're not just putting a sensor there to have a sensor there, right? It's, you have a sensor there that enables you to, uh, save energy on your process. You, uh, can go faster. You can, you know, monitor downtime. Like you talked about, like, there's all of these things where at the end of the day, the end result is saving money. Like when you save money for someone, there's value, like that literally is value. Right. It's like, and that's, and that's really the things that I, that I, I've seen as well that are like, those, those are the actual business cases for an industrial IOT type thing.

Chris Gammell: Well, yeah, the stakes are so high too. Like we, we do a lot. Um, we have an IOT device that we sell that is in the medium voltage switch gear market. Uh, and you have to explain what that is though too, because that, that term always trips me

John Davis: out. I'm like medium, really?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Medium. Yeah. So medium, uh, was it technically start at like 1.5 KV and goes up to like, what is it? Six KV or something like a four KV. Something like that.

John Davis: I, I don't, I don't know. I just know that low voltage is like much higher than I ever thought it was going to be.

Chris Gammell: Oh man. Yeah. I was in a, uh, a trend, like, let's just tell you how big it was. I was in a rectifier bridge, like in, like it was a, it was a building. Yeah. That was off, right? That had a door on it. Yeah. Oh yeah. It was off. But, uh, you know, that's, uh, I, of course I work with rectifiers and the stuff I work on, but like, it's a chip. Right. And when I'm looking at this thing, the, the diodes are like the size of my head and

John Davis: it's like, oh, like, yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: And that's the bus bar and there's your bridge. Like, it looks like a schematic. It's just huge. But anyways, um, you know, so for, for that stuff, uh, the IOT device monitors bus bar temperature when, um, which, okay. You're like, why would you want to monitor bus bar temperature? Well, a lot of this stuff feeds gigantic motors that are doing big operations. And you know, the, one of the fun things that work in an industry is like when that motor kicks on, I mean, you, you know, from school that current is like an electromotive force, right? Like, you know that? Yeah. You actually know it when you see like bus bar rattle because the amount of current that's flowing through it from like the inrush current of a motor. Yeah. That's big, right? So, um,

John Davis: creates magnetic fields and then that interacts with other fields and yada, yada, yada.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Oh, it's huge. So, you know, why do you monitor bus bar temperature? Well, when things rattle, connections come loose, it starts creating micro-arching situations. And, you know, if you, if you think of all of the energy, uh, that's in there, if something like, you know, arcs to, or it goes to ground, um, that's a problem. That's, that's tens of thousands of amps going to ground and it's going to break something, right? So anyways, that's an IOT situation. You want to monitor that.

John Davis: I mean, that's the, that's the real question, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

John Davis: But probably your, your powers, your power supply is not going to be happy wherever the hell that is. Right. And like, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Uh, more like your power plant. There was a, um, wow. Yeah. One of the companies we were talking to, they do aluminum smelting and, uh, yeah, those guys. Yeah. Yeah. They, their electricity bill per month was, uh, $7 million a month, but they, um, they had a situation. They had some special monitoring on their, their, uh, their input to the plant. But either way at the substation, if, if they went to ground and they shorted, like if one of the big, big motors went to ground, um, they could actually shut down, uh, I won't say where it is cause it'll give it away. Cause I mean, there's only like seven of these places in the U S but it would like shut down half of that state's electrical grid because they would have to kill the, yeah. I mean, it's insane.

John Davis: It's just, you basically start to overtax the, uh, the generators, right? Because it's probably generated with steam and the generate, you know, like, yeah, like all that stuff, you know, it's all tied back somewhere. Yeah, man.

Chris Gammell: It trips the breaker. Yeah. Really big breaker. Yeah.

John Davis: And that's nuts. Uh, yeah. Yeah. Do you, it's too bad you're not allowed to like, like I would follow a Twitter account just of all the crazy shit you've seen. Like, cause like, and that's the fun thing about industrial really too, is that like, there's just weird stuff out there. Like, I don't know if you can sneak pictures, you should totally start a Twitter account doing that.

Chris Gammell: That'd be kind of fun. Wouldn't it? It would.

John Davis: I mean, like, I don't know, like, I don't know if you follow machine picks.

Chris Gammell: Uh, no, I should.

John Davis: Uh, so that's Kane. Uh, I think he's public about, I hope he's public. He's public now. Uh, but he's, uh, so he works with Abidon, uh, at root ventures and he has this great, great Twitter account. And like he posts these amazing, like slow-mo shots of like, like industrial processes and it's they're, they're always mesmerizing. And, uh, highly recommend following that Twitter account. So like something like that, except, you know, it doesn't have to be moving necessarily. Uh, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. So before we have to wind up, I do want to go back to sales a little bit. Um, if that's right with you. Yeah, that's fine.

John Davis: That's good. That's a good wrap up technique.

Chris Gammell: So, uh, with, um, okay. So, uh, engineers out there, uh, you know,

John Davis: Oh, this is the pitch.

Chris Gammell: Oh, this is the pitch. Yeah. All right. Get ready. Coffee is coffee is for closers. Chris put down the coffee. That's right. I can be a closer. Come on, man. Nobody probably knows. I come from a long line of salespeople. I know what you're talking about, man.

John Davis: Yeah. Oh yeah. Uh huh.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Uh, yeah. Uh, so, um, okay. If you're, uh, one of the things I can't stress enough is, uh, vendor relationships. Uh, so I know I've heard people talk about this before and, um, I think they undervalue it or, or maybe like, okay. Are you saying from the engineering level or at the sales level? From an engineering level. So as a, as an engineer, and I've thought this too, it's like, if you, if you're thinking, what is the purpose of a salesperson in the age of Amazon? Um, which is a valid question, right? Yeah. I think, uh, yeah. Uh, you know, especially if you're going out on your own, you're starting a business and you're trying to get things rolling and all that. Um, uh, make sure, you know, find a good sales person. Uh, make sure that whatever vendor you choose, you get good support through their sales team and then lean on that person like crazy because typically, or, or oftentimes they're the gatekeeper when it comes to, uh, getting credit with a company. Um, if there's a lot, if there's a lead time issue, if you know your salesperson, well, you can lean on them, uh, and they might be able to get you bumped up in the queue to get you a better lead time. I mean, there's, there's a thousand small things that that person can help you out with. Uh, it's worthwhile keeping those relationships going. Right.

John Davis: Right. And I mean, like, and I think there's, there's always a soft benefits too. Like, I, I know this is not what you're talking about, but like, I found one of my jobs through a salesperson too. It was just like the human component still is really necessary, I think. And, uh, and they're, and like, honestly, they were always keeping an eye out for me too. Right. Like the one sales guy that I had in Cleveland was fantastic. Um, he doesn't listen to the show, unfortunately, but, uh, but he was always really great. I mean, like he was, he was literally keeping an eye out. It wasn't necessarily from a sales perspective. It wasn't like, I want to sell another thing. It was like, he knew what I was working on. He just kind of pinged me real soft. And like that, that is a good salesperson, right? That is someone who's just got your best interest in mind. And they're, you know, I'm going to go there when I do have a real problem and I'd be like, Hey, you know, like you helped me last time, please help me again. You know, like, it's just basically that track record of helpfulness.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. And if, if your salesperson seems, uh, like a, like a shyster, uh, they're not a good salesperson. Like the best ones are, they're almost, it's like a peer, right? It's like, Hey, you know, Chris, I've got this problem. Um, uh, it's like, it's like asynchronous engineering. If they're really good and they're a fantastic resource, you can say, man, yeah, exactly. You got it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How's that programming go for you, Chris?

John Davis: It's not that I've been reading that book. I read that book, Damon. I will, I'll put a link in the comments and I'll tell you about it after the show, but Oh, it's so good.

Chris Gammell: Was that a Stevenson book? It's not Neil.

John Davis: No, it's not Neil Stevenson. It is, uh, Oh God. It's the people that do that's based. The DC dark net is based on it. I probably mentioned on here before, but, uh, yeah. Oh, okay. Oh, you have to read it. It's so good. Yeah. Yep.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Well, that, that's a great way to think about it. It's a, a good salesperson can be like a Damon for a lot of that stuff and, you know, use them. Uh, that's what they're there for. Make them earn their commission. Come on.

John Davis: I think so too. And I think, I think you'll be able to tell too, like, you know, I've had a wide range of people that have interfaced with me. I think the key thing actually that you and I haven't mentioned yet is that the, um, you know, some of it's going to depend on how much you can provide. Right. I got much better service when I was at ABB than other places just because like there was a ton of money behind it. Right. And like, so that is kind of a caveat. I'm sure that your customers are probably bigger than small. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. But you know, it's, um, it's not like every customer is a million dollar customer. I mean, there's some, there are some that I just, I just like them as people. So I try to help them out. Yeah. And that helps. There are others that are. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I don't know if you, I think we're, uh, it may make, uh, that gets flipped on its head as if you're a startup. I mean, if you have a good product and you're, you know, if you have like your TI rep con on you or whatever, for instance, right. And you can convince them that your product is really great. I mean, they're going to go to bat for you and get you samples and get you, you know, whatever. Right. That's a common type.

John Davis: Yeah, exactly. And usually it's for storytelling as well. It's like, oh, well we helped start up ABC because, and look what they did with it. Right. That, that they liked that stuff too.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. My, my controversial, uh, statement will be, there is no such thing as an engineering company. All companies are sales companies. Ooh. There's.

John Davis: Yeah. Okay. We'll debate that in person sometime.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Well, hey, hey, you got to sell it, right? I, uh, I have a tally of how many people have told me their product will sell itself. Oh, okay. Well, yeah. That, all right.

John Davis: Well, I, I don't agree with anyone who says that either. Uh, that is where that has worked in history, but it is not, it is the exception, not the rule. So yeah.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yep. Okay. Yeah.

John Davis: Uh, or, all right. I, I might be, I might, I might lean closer to you than, than away from, uh, what about, uh, so like, I, I thought you were going to, when I said, uh, this is the time for pitching, I thought you were going to try and pitch people for going into sales. Is that?

Chris Gammell: Oh, um, I mean, hmm. So is that a, is that a no? No, it's okay. Okay. So, uh, sales is actually, uh, prior to the podcast, um, I was writing stuff down like, Oh, I have to make sure to mention this, or I want to make sure that, uh, uh, you know, flesh this out. That, that was one of the things, right? Like what, what do I say if Chris asked me this question? Um, chances are that it won't be any less stressful. Say you're an engineer right now, you're a design engineer. Okay. And you're, you're personable. You, uh, had, I don't know, maybe it got your review and they're like, Hey, you should go into sales. And you're like, I'm that bad of an engineer. Crap. Right. Yeah. Right. They might just be saying that you know how to talk to people. So yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, you know, should you, should you take that job and go into sales? Uh, I think it depends on what you're looking for. There are, um, you know, if you weigh the, the, the pros and cons, um, you know, all the benefits I listed before, you get to see a lot of things, you get a, you get to keep a pulse on the, um, uh, on whatever industry you're in. If you ever are looking for a job, being in sales is the best position to be in because it gives you exposure to everybody. Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You're, you'll have, you'll never have a problem finding work, assuming, you know, you're, you're good.

John Davis: And also if you're looking for work right now and you know some salespeople, you might know who'd ask for a, uh, for a tip or two, you know?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Um, it's probably won't be lower stress. Well, it's going to be a different type of stress. Like, you know, as engineers, uh, we're beholden to things like, you know, uh, deadlines and bill material costs and, uh, you know, all the stuff that goes along with product development as salespeople. It's like, Hey man, I don't care if the economy dipped 5%. You have goals. Yeah. You have goals, buddy. And if you want to get paid, you got to meet those goals. Right. So, um, but there's also a cleanliness in that too. It's like, okay. Like, uh, you're never wondering what your job expectations are. Here's your budget. Uh, that's what we call our, our sales goals. Here's your, your sales goal, your budget. Uh, that's really all that matters. Um, you know, how, how are you doing with that? Right. There, there is no equivocation about, um, you know, well you did it like your review process is okay. You know, you're supposed to sell a million dollars. You sold. You're above it or below it. And yeah, right. Yeah, exactly. Uh, you know, the other thing too, is that, um, you know, the trade-off for that stress though is the earning potential can be higher, uh, depends on what, what sales you go into and all that. Um, but there's more travel. So, you know, I don't know.

John Davis: Uh, I would actually, I would think that I think is interesting that you might be a outlier for is like, I, I, if I was ever going to go into it, it would probably be because of just an interesting situation. Right. But the thing that would frighten me and might frighten some of our listeners is, uh, well, what about the tech stuff? It seems like, you know, I got an engineering because I like solving problems and I, and I know that sales solves problems in that scenario, but it's like, it feels like the tech stuff is just non-existent. You know what I mean?

Chris Gammell: Oh no. I, I would say that's, that's, uh, well, okay. It depends if you're selling toilet paper, um, you know, the problem, that's a shitty job. Yeah. I can't help you there, buddy. That's, oh, yeah. Uh, you know, if you, I, I do. So let me put it this way. When I started with the company, I was definitely not doing any engineering period. Uh, now I spend a significant time of my time doing that. Uh, and the people that I employ, uh, you know, I hire engineers who are, who have potential salespeople and make them into salespeople. And they're also doing engineer, engineering too. The, um, uh, you know, it all depends on what you're doing. Uh, and if you go out looking for tech stuff, I mean, if, if I look at when I first started getting interested in, uh, making sure that I knew as much or more than my customers that could actually do their jobs to a certain degree, there is a, there is a direct connection between the company revenue growing and me changing focus. And the more that I learn and know, like the more money we make. So, I mean, it's interesting. It's a, uh, yeah, I mean, it makes, well, uh, so, you know, as an, okay. Engineer Chris, uh, who would you rather talk to you? The sales guy who can sit down and look over a schematic with you and go, oh, you know, have you thought of this? Or, you know, maybe we can use this other product here because this weird characteristic, like you can do that or the guy who is like, well, uh, let me get back to you on that. Right. Exactly. Right.

John Davis: And well, and like having someone well-networked within their own company, depending on, you know, the vendor type, whatever, like having someone well-networked and organized, that helps. Uh, but at, at a certain point where they're going to run into is like, well, I can't give a bigger price break because you're only this, you know, X big of a company and I can't, you know, I just can't help you with your individual problem. So it's like, well, what is, what is that person's value versus like what you're saying? I, most of the time, as long as they're organized, I'll take the, I'll take the technical competent person. Um, as long as they're not like, you know, there's, there's always overstepping potentially, but you know, the best ones know how to navigate that. I think.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yeah. Well, and you know, kind of tongue in cheek, uh, we, we do the best kind of engineering and sales, uh, because, uh, you know, I, I get you up to the solution and then the actual hard part, the implementation, I'm like, Hey man, I'll see you later. I got you there here. Oh, 2am install. Oh yeah. I definitely, I feel for you, man. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's, that's, that's horrible. Let me know how it goes. See you in the morning. Yeah. See you in the morning. So it's the best engineering. It's all the fun without any of the, uh, like struck or, or horribleness. So yeah. Okay.

John Davis: Yeah. That sounds right. I mean like, yeah. And I guess I didn't really think about it from that perspective. I, I guess I always think of like, there's sales and like, I guess this is another like kind of the, the terminology too, right? There's, there's field applications, engineers, there's sales engineers or sales people. And like in, in that three person, uh, you know, spectrum, I just explained like usually the ones at the far left are the ones that I like hanging out with. Cause they're the ones who see all the most technical problems and are solving the problems versus just like checking quotas and making sure POs are made and stuff like that. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Yep. Yeah. So, you know, I, I guess, um, to go back to my endorsement, cause I, man, I sounded really horrible about that. Uh, I, I, everybody should look at going into sales. Um, unless you just really, uh, if it's not your personality type or whatever, I think, um, you know, it's not, uh, it's probably not what most people think it is, especially if you're newer into, uh, you know, the workplace or whatever, but it can be exceptionally rewarding and really fun and very flexible. But it's also surprisingly, um, uh, probably one of the hardest careers out there, uh, because it's hard. There, there is no, there's no, uh, you know, uh, there's no spec for how to be a good sales person. Um, you can't, I mean, it just, yeah, it, it, it's tough.

John Davis: That, that, that sounds right. Yeah. I mean, like sometimes it's like design this widget and then you're like, all right, I'm going to go design this widget, but how to make a sale. Like, I don't know, like you get to talk to a shitload of people and like, it's like there, yeah, it sounds like a very open-ended task versus a very closed-ended task, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

John Davis: Yeah. Cool. Well, John, uh, thank you for, uh, doing this. Thank you for introducing us to past guests as well. You were the one who introduced us, introduced us to Jerry, uh, Roston, uh, as well. And, uh, I appreciate that. Uh, I'm sure that we'll call you back when we get sales questions, you know, like maybe, maybe, maybe, maybe we'll get a lot of interest and people are like, oh, we got to hear more about sales. Yeah. Probably not.

Chris Gammell: But, you know, uh, yeah, you'll probably see all your listeners drop off after this. They'll be like, well, Chris jumped the shark.

John Davis: Like, I wouldn't have asked you on if I didn't think like you're interested in electronics, you're in the industrial space. So plus two right there. Like we haven't talked to any salespeople. So I think this is really, this is good. This is a good, a good look at that. And, uh, yeah, I think you're, you're doing it right.

Chris Gammell: Well, thank you. I appreciate it. And, uh, you know, I'll throw out there to everybody too. If you are, uh, if you're interested in learning more about sales or, uh, just, I don't know, I want to pick my brain on whatever. I mean, please, please reach out. I love talking to people. Um, there's been, uh, a number of people that I have, uh, mentored over to the dark side. Oh, wow. All right. Darth Vader in here. But yeah. Yeah. Or if you're starting a company or, uh, whatever. I mean, uh, that's the fun part. Um, getting to see what people are doing and trying to help them out. So, yeah.

John Davis: Cool. All right, John. Uh, thanks. Thanks for that. Where can people find you online?

Chris Gammell: Uh, okay. So on Twitter, you, yep, you can, that's probably the best way to get me. It's, uh, uh, John PR Davis. Very original. I know.

John Davis: Yeah. Whatever. Yeah. Okay, cool. All right. We'll post all the links here as well. And, uh, yeah, we'll talk to you soon. Thanks for being on the show. Hey, thanks for having me. Appreciate it. See ya.

Chris Gammell: I don't know, man. You think people will find that interesting?

John Davis: I guarantee it. Like, seriously, I think that'll be. Yeah. If they don't turn it off at the beginning because you said sales, um, then I think it'll be, I think it'll be good. I should have put on my pitch voice.