#313 – My Kind of Town

Chris Gammell: This is The Amp Hour Podcast. Recorded August 31st, 2016. Episode 313. My Kind of Town.

Dave Jones: Welcome to the Amp Hour. I'm Dave Jones from the EEV blog.

Chris Gammell: And I'm Chris Camel of Contextual Electronics.

Dave Jones: What's up, nerd?

Chris Gammell: Well, you've got, come on, you've got huge news.

Dave Jones: Let's just open with that.

Chris Gammell: There's some things, yeah. Yeah, there's some things. So I don't live in Cleveland anymore. Toto, I don't think we're in Cleveland anymore. I now, I moved to Chicago. That's one of many things, actually.

Dave Jones: And we will post a link down below for where you explain all this in your not often updated blog.

Chris Gammell: That's right, yep.

Dave Jones: Yep, but this is worthy enough to blog, I guess.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, well, it was mostly, I was actually thinking about talking about it. So obviously, moving cities is a big deal. And I was thinking about announcing it here because at some point I'm going to be like, hey guys, I'm having an event in Chicago. And then the next time it's like, hey guys, I'm having an event in Chicago. And eventually someone's going to ask, you know, why are you in Chicago so much?

Dave Jones: So what happens to poor Martin Lawton, who moved all the way from South Africa to Cleveland?

Chris Gammell: You know, surprisingly, he did not move for me. I think he's going to make it. I think he'll be okay. Right. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, I live in Chicago now. It's been a long...

Dave Jones: Actually, in the city.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, I live kind of... Kind of, sort of. Yeah, kind of like if people have flown through O'Hare. I kind of live between O'Hare and downtown. But still, you know, relatively urban.

Dave Jones: Right. So a short train-ish ride to the... Yeah. Oh, yeah. I haven't been to Chicago, so I don't know how big the center hub of Chicago is.

Chris Gammell: It's pretty sprawling. Right. So it's the third biggest city in the U.S. Oh, okay. But if you look at the... Especially with the suburbs and everything, it starts to make... I mean, it is... I think it's bigger than Sydney. Okay. But it's, you know, it's the same kind of sprawl where it just keeps going, you know?

Dave Jones: Just keep going for... Yeah. And that's mostly suburbia, is it? Is there like industrial parks outside of Chicago? Yeah. Or how does it all happen, industrial, business-wise?

Chris Gammell: So, like, out there... Well, actually, that's where Motorola was based. So, like, there is the shell of a giant out there, basically. And, you know, there's other stuff here, too. There's, like, a lot of headquarters in downtown, stuff like that. But there are... There's a lot of industry that got built up around... Chicago and stuff like that. So, you remember that Valve, the Steam Controller thing? Oh, yes. That video that they made? That's right. That actually was in a factory outside of Chicago, as well. Oh, okay. There is a large...

Dave Jones: Was that the old Motorola facility?

Chris Gammell: I don't know. I don't know if it was.

Dave Jones: I kind of recall that Motorola facility being used for something.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean, that could be true of a lot of things, actually. It's just, like, there are so many old facilities. So, I'll be poking around, you know, talking to people about it. So, yeah.

Dave Jones: Maybe you can do one of those... Set up one of those abandoned site YouTube channels, you know. You can go visit all these abandoned tech sites.

Chris Gammell: I'm sure that there's probably new people in there. But maybe not. Yeah. Maybe it's interesting. I think I've talked to people that... There's, like, PCB fabs out here, too. Like, just because... Excuse me. Like I said, there was just so much industry around... You know, because when you think about it, like, all the cell phone stuff, it used to be, you know, all the flip phone days. Motorola was a huge player.

Dave Jones: They were huge, yeah. They were probably number one at one point, maybe.

Chris Gammell: Probably, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like, when the Razer came out, like, yeah, that was... Yeah, probably. At least in the States, that was a big deal, I know. Right. Which, actually, I think, was the first phone that I tore down. No, maybe it was... Oh, okay. It must have been a brick phone. Because I remember my parents let me bust up their old cell phones. And at some point, I definitely pulled apart a Razer. So, the good old days. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: So, yeah. Yes. Cleveland. Woo-hoo.

Chris Gammell: Yes. All right.

Dave Jones: I got no more Cleveland jokes.

Chris Gammell: Oh, we can still make them. I just... I can... I'd be on your side now, you know. Right. Okay. At least I love Cleveland. Detroit. It was great, you know. And I like Detroit, too, let's be honest. I'm a Westfield baby.

Dave Jones: So, how much does a house cost in Chicago? Is it the price of two VCRs or what?

Chris Gammell: No, many VCRs, yeah. All right. It's tens to dozens of VCRs. A couple of Blu-ray players in there. No, it's like... I don't know. It depends on where you are in the city. Because there's a lot of different stuff.

Dave Jones: Are there any, like, slummy areas like there are in Cleveland?

Chris Gammell: There are some rough spots. I mean, people in the States, at least, will see. There's been a lot of news stories about violence, but... Okay.

Dave Jones: Hmm. I... Right.

Chris Gammell: I'm not living anywhere really near that.

Dave Jones: But every city has ones like that. It's like, you know, like... I was actually at the... Seeing the wars the other night. I went to see the wars. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I saw that picture. Yeah, the Australian Technology Park. And that's in an area of Sydney where... You know, some students came up to me, actually. And they found me after... One minute after I tweeted a photo inside the complex, they found me. Nice. They were following my tweets. Anyway. Right. They said, oh, yeah, we're from Adelaide. You know, first time in Sydney. And it's like... Yeah. Like, they were thinking about, like, taking the train back or something. Or whatever it was. And I said, yeah, you probably shouldn't be, you know, walking too far around this area without knowing where to go on a, you know, nine o'clock on a Sunday night. You know, it's probably not the safest.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, maybe.

Dave Jones: It's safe. But, you know, every city has its areas. That's what I'm...

Chris Gammell: Of course. Yeah, yeah. I mean, yeah.

Dave Jones: And most of it's overblown, you know. Like, you could... Right, right.

Chris Gammell: You're the suburbanite now, Dave. You're the guy that's like, oh, I'm not down here that much. You know, you get normalized to it eventually. I'm not there yet either.

Dave Jones: The thing is, 99 out of 100 times, you can walk around no problems, you know. It's like... Right. Exactly. You know, and you go, oh, what's all the fuss about?

Chris Gammell: If you're smart and you're in well-lit areas and all the normal things. So, yeah. Right. Yeah, I agree. So, I live in a very well-lit area. So, it's good. I'm safe, Dave. Excellent. I know you're concerned.

Dave Jones: What? All right. Now, the big question is, what have you done in terms of lab?

Chris Gammell: Aha. Yes. So, well, sad to say, I did leave my custom-built bench behind because I did sell my house.

Dave Jones: You were down in the basement. Yeah, of course. I was in the basement. Sold your house. Yes.

Chris Gammell: Talked about that a lot. I had made a bunch of videos about how I built that bench and stuff like that. And...

Dave Jones: So, was that sad? Like, just leaving it all? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Especially because I'm pretty sure the people who bought the house, you know, it was like, you know, a couple with two young kids. It's like, you know, it's not going to get used for the same thing. Not that I really expect that. No, no, no.

Dave Jones: It's going to get torn apart.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And...

Dave Jones: I'm not nostalgic at all for that sort of stuff. Like, my house that I grew up in for, you know, decades. Like, it's like, meh. I don't... You know? Like... Yeah. Sorry. Like, my old lab out the back. My old tin workshop slash lab. You know? Like...

Chris Gammell: Oh, so it's not going to be, like, enshrined? Like, the HP garage? No, it's not enshrined.

Dave Jones: No. In a big glass case. No.

Chris Gammell: Give a picture of it, at least. That's all that really... I mean, like, that's...

Dave Jones: Actually, I don't think I do.

Chris Gammell: Ah, see, that's too bad.

Dave Jones: Because this was before the age of digital cameras. And it was like, I didn't even have a camera back then. I didn't even own a film camera.

Chris Gammell: Right. And if you did have a film camera, you probably wouldn't be wasting it taking pictures of a ratty tin building. No.

Dave Jones: No. It just came out of special occasions, you know? Exactly. And even then, we rarely took a photo. You know, I have very few photos of my father, for example.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Exactly. You know? Right.

Dave Jones: Who isn't here anymore. It's like, you know, very few. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So, yeah. Scary. It's... That's too bad you don't have that. I mean, like... But it's good that you're not emotional about it, right? I mean, like, that's... No. Yeah.

Dave Jones: I don't... Yeah. It doesn't bother me, in the least.

Chris Gammell: These days... So, I had to, you know, pack up all my stuff, too. And packing is never fun, especially with... Yep. So, of all the... I probably had probably 40-plus boxes of just stuff, and that's after clearing everything out. And 20-plus of those were just my bench stuff. Right. All right. So... Yeah. But, you know, at a certain point when you're, like, clearing stuff out, you get in that mode, you know, like that purge mode. And I found that if I did get sentimental about anything, and I was like, I don't need this, though. Take a picture. Back stuff to Google. Google Photos or whatever your cloud service is. Uh-huh. And then, you know, maybe you look at it, and maybe you don't. And either way, you didn't need the thing anymore. No. So, like, a bunch of paintings I had, I was just like, no, I don't need these. So...

Dave Jones: So, did you sell anything? Did you toss anything? So, you just tossed a lot of stuff?

Chris Gammell: Tossed a lot of stuff. You know, gave away a bunch of gear at my meetup. Oh, okay. Cool. I highly recommend doing that. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Some of the ends... I would... I'd never throw gear out. I'd either sell it on eBay, or as I often do... Well, I both sell, like, old crappy stuff on eBay, and also give it away to youngsters and stuff like that. So, yep.

Chris Gammell: So, the thing that I did realize is that, you know, I'm a pack rat like any other hardware person, right? We're all... Oh, someday I'll need this. Someday. And...

Dave Jones: And if you aren't, you're a lawyer.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, right. If you aren't, you have a secret storage place somewhere, right? Yep. But that stuff's hard to give away. So, I had, like, a bunch of, like, old junk bin boards. You know what I mean? Like, we're...

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: I could have harvested parts off them, but that would have been because they were dupes of what I had. Yep. And so, that made sense. But to anyone else, they're like, I don't need this. I don't even know what this is.

Dave Jones: No, no, no. No, exactly. You have to toss those, really. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Well, and luckily, we have a good... We had a good recycling program where I lived in Cleveland. Oh, okay. Right. Yeah. So, and actually lined up perfectly where, like, there was, like, one day a month where there was the electronics recycling day. Ah, excellent. Perfect. And it was, like, right as I moved. So, yeah, that was great. Nice. Yep. But, you know, it's also good. You know, it's good to purge that stuff, too. So, I had, like, an old bench supply that, you know, like, the super heavy linear big power heat sink on it. And I didn't want to bring that with me because I knew how heavy it was and the display was busted. So, I gave it to someone. And, you know, like, a lot of stuff like that where it's just, like, it's, like, an opportunity to upgrade stuff, too. Of course. Not that you have to do that, but it's just, it's a good excuse to get rid of stuff you don't need. Exactly. Yeah. Especially if you're in that mode. Because, like I said, I still had so much crap. It's insane. So.

Dave Jones: Hopefully, I'll be doing exactly the same thing soon.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, you're moving, too, huh? Kind of. Sort of. Sort of. You said you're not moving all your gear, though.

Dave Jones: No, I'm not moving. I am not moving the lab, but I have rented a new space. Office space. Right. Yeah. Yes. So, we're both big changes.

Chris Gammell: Yes. I think it might be a little bigger, but yes, yours are big, too.

Dave Jones: No, mine's, yeah. No, the new space is smaller than my current lab, but it's only going to be used for the office. The idea is that I'm going to segregate video editing and office admin-type business tasks and the lab where I shoot videos. The lab will be the lab. Makes sense. The lab will be the lab. Yeah. Yeah. That's great. Anyway, that's the plan. It's within walking distance. I currently can't walk there with a knee, or I shouldn't. Right. So, yeah. But I haven't even set it up yet. It is blank. It is just carpet and walls. And a balcony.

Chris Gammell: Nice. Nice. Balcony. Yeah. And that is tough.

Dave Jones: I can see the mountains.

Chris Gammell: You guys have mountains?

Dave Jones: Yeah. Blue mountains. West of Sydney. Sydney's like a basin, and then there's like the blue mountains.

Chris Gammell: I'll see it next year. It's fine. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. But it is tough when you have that blank slate again, right? I mean, like that is...

Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly. I don't know what to do.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Right. Because then sometimes you overbuy and stuff like that. So, you asked about bench. What am I doing for bench? I left my bench behind. Yeah. Sad, sad, whatever. But so, I'm in an apartment now, and it's not a big place. You know, it's maybe 600 square feet max. Not even that, probably. And so, there's like a breakfast nook. So, it's like a small galley kitchen with like a breakfast nook. And the breakfast nook is where my bench is going. Right. Nice. Yes. Yes. Taking over that. And you know, I have... I mean, I mapped it all out, and I went to Ikea for the first time ever. And I'm just going simple. You know? Like, so I'm going to have one of those workstation desks where you basically connect a desk or like a big platform desk to a set of shelves. And basically, those two things fit in there perfectly. And then, all the monitors will be wall mounted. All the shelves will be used to store, you know, the oscilloscopes and the bench meters and stuff like that. And I'll pull them out as needed. Because that's the other thing I've been thinking about, too. Like, I had, you know, I had the shelf aspect like you have at your lab. You know, a lot of labs I've worked at have been like that. But I never really liked that, actually. I would rather...

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: I mean, do you like that?

Dave Jones: You want to store stuff in cobblers? Yeah. I've always liked the benches to put the gear up on and then have the leads hanging down and, yep, reach it up to...

Chris Gammell: See, I like the... I definitely like the accessibility, like the immediacy of it. But at the end of the day, like, I'd rather have it, like, side by side.

Dave Jones: I do, actually. That's why I've said this before and I'll say it again. I prefer... I don't like bench multimeters for that reason.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah, right. Handhelds are better for that.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I prefer having my multimeter, like, a handheld one and a small one. Hence, I'm a big fanboy of small multimeters right next to the thing I'm working on. Yeah, exactly. And, yep. Totally. Totally.

Chris Gammell: And I think it's just kind of, you know, like, bench meters are great, but, like, I find myself as well. So, like, in terms of, you know, like, you obviously talk about meters a lot. But, you know, I have a six and a half digit and I just don't need it most of the time. Right. Yeah, of course. Three and a half gets me 80, 85% of the way and then...

Dave Jones: Oh, 95%. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, exactly. And so it's like... And that's another reason where it's like I don't really need that and then it gets more light. And light's usually one of the hard things to do, right? You know about that in your lab, too. Uh-huh. Yep. So I have a window and I'll have, you know, LED lighting and stuff like that. So kind of just optimizing for different things and lots and lots of space, you know, where hopefully I keep it clear. Right. But, you know, we'll see how that goes.

Dave Jones: Because you've got a setup to continue the videos, right?

Chris Gammell: Right, exactly. Yeah, that's another thing for me. So, yeah. So this new space will be where I record contextual electronics videos and stuff like that. And lighting is a huge piece of that. So that'll be a new challenge. But I'm not too worried. I mean, I think it'll be... I think it'll all work out fine. And I've got, you know, just a general storage rack, too. So... Yeah.

Dave Jones: And you can probably attest to this as well, that being the content producer that you are, a lab that's set up for video production is very different from just an electronics lab.

Chris Gammell: I completely agree. Yeah. Because... It's totally different. Yeah. Because an electronics lab, by default, like, if you do have all that gear there, it's, you know, it's kind of cluttered. It doesn't have to be. But usually it is because you've got multiple experiments running or you've got, you know, data sheets here and there. And it's just a lot of stuff in one area. Whereas with video, you want clarity. You want, like... You want one focal thing in the shot kind of thing. And just so that it's less confusing. And that was always a tough thing at my old lab, too, because I try to do both. And that makes it tough. So... Yeah. So we'll see how that goes. Definitely need to figure out the filming stuff. But I'm not even worried about that yet. So I'll get there. Yeah. So... And...

Dave Jones: And...

Speaker ?: And...

Dave Jones: He doesn't want me to bring it up.

Chris Gammell: I knew he was going to. So I wrote about it already. Okay.

Dave Jones: So I will bring it up, being the... Go ahead.

Chris Gammell: The... Fantastic co-host that I am.

Dave Jones: Ladies, get ready. The Gammill is single. Hence the move. Which you can read all about it on his blog. This is... I'm not... I'm not outing him. No, that's fine. Yeah, I... That was all public.

Chris Gammell: Well, it's now public.

Dave Jones: It's now public on his blog. So, yes, line up. Ladies only. Sorry, guys. Yes.

Chris Gammell: All the ladies that listen to the amp are...

Dave Jones: This huge nerdy stub muffin could be yours.

Chris Gammell: Yes, Dave. I am blushing. Thank you. Thank you.

Dave Jones: This is hilarious. Sorry. It's great. Anyway.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, so I'm taking advice now from the number one e-book, How to Date Online guy.

Dave Jones: I am the world's foremost author.

Chris Gammell: I'm getting lots of unsolicited advice from him. And, yeah. But, yeah. So, long story short, me and my wife split a while ago. And, yeah. And that so motivated the move. And, you know, it's life. It's real. It's fine. It actually all worked out pretty well. So, I'm not too worried about that.

Dave Jones: It wasn't a, I'll kill you. No. No. It was very, very amicable.

Chris Gammell: So, yeah.

Dave Jones: Yep. Yeah. That's good to hear.

Chris Gammell: Yep. It was very mature. So, that was really good.

Dave Jones: Excellent.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: So, he's now trawling hackerspaces, folks. No.

Chris Gammell: That is not. That is not what I said. I went to an open house last night. Dave was asking if I was going to meet girls there. And I was like, no, Dave. That's not why I'm going there. Anyways. Speaking of that, though.

Dave Jones: And an open house being an open hackerspace house. Yeah. So, they have open days, do they? What's going on? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So, Tuesdays. And I think there's maybe Saturdays as well. So, Pumping Station 1 is like, it's pretty close to where I live. And that's like one of the biggest hackerspaces in the country. They do really good stuff. They do a lot of outreach stuff, too. And so, I went to one of their meetings last night. I got to meet a lot of cool people.

Dave Jones: Are you going to join? Is that going to be your local hackerspace?

Chris Gammell: I don't know. Yeah, maybe. I mean, so, there's a lot of interesting things around here. I would join for the community side of things because the gear, I'm not sure about. And that's something else I wanted to bring up was another thing that's around here. Obviously, I'm real short on space. And so, I've been looking at like...

Dave Jones: Yeah, but surely you don't have a 3D printer and a CNC machine and stuff like laser cutter.

Chris Gammell: I have a 3D printer, but that doesn't take a lot of room. Yeah, you're right. So, I don't have all that other industrial equipment. But I didn't really before either, Dave. I mean, that's the main thing.

Dave Jones: Of course. Yeah, yeah. No, you can be in the US. You can just get it from Shapeways, right?

Chris Gammell: That's the 3D printer one. Oh, sorry. Yeah. Pinoco is the one. Right. I think Pinoco is the laser cutting service. And then, like, Plethora is one of the milling, like, the CNC services. And there's a couple. Right. That's for metal stuff. I'm not sure if there's other, like, milled plastic. But, yeah. There are increasingly, there's a lot of on-demand type services like that. Yeah.

Dave Jones: They're popping up in the last few years. It makes sense, too. Right. Oh, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Something like that where there's a large upfront investment, like, especially machine stuff. And then, so, like, even, like, Shapeways, which is 3D printing-based, it's like, you know, I've got a $500 kit printer, but I can go and print something on their $100,000 printer and just pay for the material and time or whatever. Exactly. And really, you know, I never listened to all the people that advised me against doing, getting a milling machine and then a 3D printer. Like, really, it does make a lot of sense at the beginning to do it like that, especially to understand what you don't know about. Exactly. And there's cheaper ones than Shapeways, too. There's one, Make XYZ is one of the states. Oh, okay. That's like a, that's kind of like a shared printing service. So, it's not like you send it to a central hub, like, like, Shapeways actually has factories where they're printing stuff. This is like, you know, Joey down the street, he's got a 3D printer. He tells you he can do FDM printing with, you know, a 0.4 millimeter nozzle. And then you just send out the file and it's just a, it's literally just a transaction layer. Right.

Dave Jones: Nice.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And that's, that's actually pretty cool. You know, especially if you've got, I mean, you can make a little bit of cash if you, if you have an extra printer, but it's probably more hassle. I don't really know. It seems like it'd be more hassle than it's worth, but maybe, maybe some people are making money with it. But, yeah, and it's, but it's just like anything with, you know, like, so I, another piece of news is that I'm car free now. So, I don't own a car anymore. I sold my car or I gave it away actually. Interesting, yes. Donated it. And, and I'm not worried about it, you know, like, there are so many similar things. It's where it's a big investment up front.

Dave Jones: Yeah, but that's common. Like, if you're not, you know, out in the suburbs and have a family and all that sort of stuff. If, you know, you're living in an apartment near the, near transport then, yeah, you just don't need the car.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, no, no, this would not have been possible in Cleveland for sure. But, but I just mean that, like, it's the same concept of availability of, you know, I have this expensive asset and I'm going to put it to use for more people. So, cars or 3D printers or milling machines or whatever, right? And it's just, that's just the formula that keeps getting applied all these different places. So, surely there's no, there's no one for test equipment yet. Maybe you should start that, Dave.

Dave Jones: No, yeah, that's, people have talked about that over the years and I, well, there are rental places, right? There's test equipment rental places. Of course, there's always been rental places. And they're not cheap. But not like by the hour. You know, yeah, it's just not worth that hassle, you know? Because how often do you need a one gig scope, for example? It's like, you know, like.

Chris Gammell: Well, and when you need it, you need it, right? So, that's when it actually does that.

Dave Jones: Yeah, but in electronics, you can often get by without the high end stuff. Oh, 100%.

Chris Gammell: But no, no, no, I've heard about people doing like, yeah, you know, like vector network analyzer type stuff. Like really high end stuff where they're $300,000 pieces of equipment anyways, right? Like that, it might make sense.

Dave Jones: But how many people are working on stuff like that? Because, you know, everything's like proven with chipset based stuff these days. You know, you buy, it's all characterized off the shelf chipset. You just put the board together as long as you know what you're doing in the layout and you follow the app notes and whatever, you know? But you can produce a working solution.

Chris Gammell: I don't agree with that. I mean, you still need test equipment for it.

Dave Jones: Yeah, sure. But you don't need to verify the performance output of your, you know, 3G wireless module, right?

Chris Gammell: Right, yeah. If you have a chip fab, you probably are able to afford the equipment right anyways, right? You're probably buying it outright. Yeah. Right, no, you just use an off-the-shelf module that works. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: So, yeah, I think that's already catered for. Like, if you need that sort of gear, then you can usually afford your traditional rental places then. So, yeah, you know.

Chris Gammell: Right, and it's just about market size too. I don't think there would be enough people.

Dave Jones: And test gear is getting cheaper. I mean, you know, a $400 scope does amazing things these days, you know?

Chris Gammell: That is very true, very true. Yep. Hmm.

Dave Jones: So, you know, $1,000 spectrum analyzer, you know? Like, yeah. Crazy.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, it's great. It's great, though. I mean, like, it's just awesome. I know. So, yeah, no, that's good. And, yeah, so, I don't know. Oh, so that's what I was going to mention. So, there's another thing. So, there's, Pumping Station 1 is great. There's a couple other smaller hackerspaces in town. And, you know, those are all kind of catering towards, you know, like, that's really straight hackerspace, you know, like, makers. Like, people that are building projects, stuff like that. There's another place, though. And so, because, twofold reason, right? One, you know, I was in the burbs, and I was very isolated out there. And I was working from home. And I still work from home. But, like, I know what it's like to sit in a basement by myself all day, right? And a lot of that I want sometimes. But there is something to be said about an office environment once in a while and having the option to do that. So, I've been looking at, like, these, you know, these shared workspaces. Yes. And so, you've talked about...

Dave Jones: And you did get one, yes.

Chris Gammell: No, not yet. Not yet.

Dave Jones: I thought you had said you'd got one.

Chris Gammell: No, I went to look at a couple. Oh, okay. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: So, first off, I should mention that, like, I balked at this stuff forever. Because, you know, it's not like they don't have this in Cleveland. But it's like, you know, it's a desk and internet access and crappy coffee, right?

Dave Jones: Yeah, right.

Chris Gammell: And then someone did the math for me. And they're like, okay, here's what you need to think about. If you were there every single day, right? So, like, the places I'm looking at are, like, $200 to $300 a month. Which is, you know, a good chunk of money, right? Some people pay that for rent in certain parts of the country here. Some people, you know, like, it's not a small, it's at least a car payment, right? For a lot of people.

Dave Jones: I can't even get my internet connection for that.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Well, you're very special, Dave, living in a very weird, special country. I know. Oh, boy. Yeah. Oh, I also found out I might be able to get gigabit ethernet. So, I'm investigating that. Oh, bloody hell. Yeah. Oh. Yeah. Anyways. All right. Robert. So, someone was doing this math for me. And they're like, okay, so here's what it is. You're working 20 days a month in a space. Imagine just weekdays, right? Right. And say you wanted to just go work at a coffee shop, right? You probably have to order, like, two drinks. You know, coffees aren't cheap these days.

Dave Jones: To have your free internet. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So, like, sitting there all day long, you probably should be buying at least a drink every four hours, you know? But maybe less, maybe more, whatever. But, like, imagine, like, 10 bucks a day, right? Right. So, just for coffee, that's then 200 bucks a month. Right. Just in coffee. Yep. Plus, you know, then you're paying for internet. You have, like, PO box services, stuff like that. And immediately, it's like, oh, like, that starts to make a lot more sense. Plus the social connections. Plus the, you know, like, just the social, you know, talking to people, whatever. So, networking type stuff. Yeah.

Dave Jones: No, it sounds like it makes it worthwhile. And that's what you were saying to me when we were talking about this.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: You were saying you like it more for the social aspect.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean, like, a lot of these spaces, too, they're targeted at, like, startups. And some of that can be really kind of, I'm kind of down on. Because it's, like, people like. Of course. We're getting funding. And, like, we really want to talk to investors. And that doesn't interest me particularly. But some people are actually doing work. And it's just, you know, like, that's any kind of networking. It's just the random exchanges that might trigger something. So, like, if you hear about. If you're just talking to someone or you're at the water cooler. You hear about something interesting or new. Or a new service that you might be able to use. Stuff like that. Like, you just don't get that. You could do that on the internet for a lot of things. Oh, of course.

Dave Jones: But it's not quite. Maybe it's not. Yeah, it's not really the same.

Chris Gammell: Right. But it's more. But, you know, so if you want to, like, sit around on Twitter all day. You'll probably see someone talking about something interesting or whatever. But you're also going to get bombarded with all the other crap. And you're probably also going to. You know, you have to be on there a lot. And so, you know, Twitter is the virtual water cooler. And that's what I like about it. But it can not be. It's not really made for, you know, human interaction all the time. You know, so. Right. As someone who dumped. Did I apologize for that on the show yet?

Dave Jones: Yeah. I figured out how to turn. Maybe I should turn it back on now, actually. Oh, I did. I did. Oh, you did? Okay. Yeah. Cool.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. But, yeah, when we were. We figured out how to. How to upload all the stuff to YouTube. And. Right. So when we push stuff to Libsyn. That's where we host all the podcast shows. But we figured out how to automatically push stuff over to YouTube. And I started doing. I did it all at once. And it was like 600 episodes. And it was auto tweeting every two seconds. And I. Yeah. You and I were talking about it before. And we're like, it'll be fine. And then it just like. Yeah.

Dave Jones: No. And then. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That was not great. No. So. Sorry about that.

Dave Jones: Oops. So anyway. Yes. We are on YouTube. We have every episode on YouTube now.

Chris Gammell: Yes.

Dave Jones: So go check it out. It is not. Unfortunately. YouTube.com slash the amp hour.

Chris Gammell: No. We're still working on that. Because it's an old channel.

Dave Jones: Because you had an old channel set up. And that needs to be canceled before. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Anyway.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Can we do just amp hour? Maybe. Because it says this channel does not exist. So I think we might be able to. Anyway. Yeah. We'll figure that out.

Chris Gammell: We'll figure it out.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Okay. So the last thing about the shared workspace thing. Because then we can talk about other stuff. So there is. Right when I was moving here. There was an announcement that one of the. One of the places that is a shared workspace. Plus an accelerator type thing. Where it's kind of like. You know. Like a Bolt. Or a. You know. A Y Combinator type thing. Where there's. Also funding involved. But not just funding. There's one called Catalyze around here. Which I had heard about. And they just announced. That they're moving into an old Motorola facility. In the city. Which is like 60,000 square feet. Of workshops. And equipment.

Dave Jones: And that's where I heard about the Motorola thing. Yep.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. That's right. Yeah. Yeah. Because you and I were talking about it. So that's called M Hub. And so I'm going to be checking that out. And that was. Yeah. So I'm going to meet with them. And it seems like an interesting space.

Dave Jones: That is a huge amount of space.

Chris Gammell: That is.

Dave Jones: In fact. We looked at the. An article. That looked at how much money they got. How much was it? Like 1.6 million dollars. For tooling or something.

Speaker ?: And.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I think that was just. Just equipment. Like it was like. Yeah. Just equipment.

Dave Jones: And we were just saying to ourselves. You can't actually buy much for that. Sort of money. You know. Especially like a facility of this scope. Oh yeah. And size. You know. And the claims of what they want to do. It's like.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: It sounds like a lot of money. But it's not. You know.

Chris Gammell: Well. It adds up real fast. I mean. So I've been helping out a little bit. With the design lab. Which is. Through my work. Supply frame. You know. We have a small space. So it's about. One tenth the size. It's about 5,000 square feet. And you know. Like that equipment. Is. It's very nice equipment. But yeah. That adds up too. And I think the main thing though. Is that. Any space like this. Where it's just like. Okay. Big chunk of money. Big chunk of space. Usually the. People go and just buy. What they think they need. Oftentimes that's not the right choice though. Yeah. Yes. And Dan who's running that lab. Actually slowed things down. He's like. No. Let's figure out what we need. Before we actually buy more gear. Because. You know. It's the same thing. It's like. You don't know. So like. That's the same argument. With like. Using. You know. The Pinoco. Or the Make Ix White. It's not Pinoco. What is it? Whatever the. The laser cutter. Sharing services. Is it Pololu? I don't know. Oh yeah. That brings it. All right. Yeah. Maybe it's that. What is Pinoco? These stupid names. It's. But it's. It's why you use that stuff first. To figure out if you actually need it. Right. So you pay more. Of course. Just like in prototyping electronics. You pay more up front for the single piece versions. For the. The low quantity stuff. Because. Then you figure out what you really need to do. Before you move into the. Higher volume of stuff later. When. When you're really cranking. So. It's. It can. It can be tricky. If you buy all that stuff up front. And then you don't really know what to do with it. And. You know. Sometimes. So I've walked through other. Spaces. And it's kind of sad too. Because. So like. You'll see this really advanced equipment. And. But like. No one's using it. You know. Like. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Exactly.

Chris Gammell: We've got a five axis. Water jet cutter. And it's like. Okay. Like that. How. It's like two people a year. Using that thing. Like what is that really. You know. And like. When you need it. You need it. Right. It's like that. Right. That. You know. Two gigahertz scope. Or whatever. Right. You know. It's like. You don't need it that often. Well when you need it. You really need it. And it's like. Kind of. But then. The downside is. That that's often what. Becomes like. The focal point of a tour. Like. Ooh. Look at this big. Expensive thing. You know. And it's like. Oh. Well.

Dave Jones: Yep. Okay. Maybe.

Chris Gammell: Maybe we should have gotten more. Laser cutters. Or more. Other mills or something. So.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: So. That was about a half an hour. Of me talking about my life.

Dave Jones: That was about your life. Yes. All right. Shall we get on to other stuff? Well. Let's.

Chris Gammell: Let me say. That was. It was a bit of an interruption. In my life. Yes. It was. But. It feels good. Put you back up on your feet. And on the prowl. Exactly. On the prowl. Thanks Dave. Right back to it.

Dave Jones: No. It's not going to end every week. I know. It's great. Oh. It's great man. I love it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Anyway. Yes. So. Yeah. I appreciate everyone that. Dave included. Who were very supportive. Throughout all of that stuff. It was. It was not easy. But. You know. Friends make it easier. So.

Dave Jones: I was taking the piss out of him. At the same time. As trying to help him. Of course. Right. Right. You can't let your. You know. Your machismo drop down. Right. Of course. Yeah. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yep. Don't seem like a human being. At all. On air. Oh boy. Anyway.

Dave Jones: All right. So.

Chris Gammell: What else do we want to talk about?

Dave Jones: Guess what I got.

Chris Gammell: Does it tick?

Dave Jones: No. It does not.

Chris Gammell: Oh really?

Dave Jones: It hums dude.

Chris Gammell: Really? I didn't know that.

Dave Jones: It hums at about 300 hertz.

Chris Gammell: Oh wow. Oh yeah. Okay. So what is it? So that people actually.

Dave Jones: I am wearing it right now. It is. It's a bum. I'm wearing. I'm wearing a 50 year old watch. It is a Bulova Accutron Space View M8. It's a great day. For those playing a lot at home. Oh yeah. It's brilliant. My one's the M8 from 1968. And I showed a. Someone at the Maker Faire. Sydney Maker Faire. Came up to me and showed it to me. Sorry. I forget your name if you're listening. Thank you very much for doing that. Now I'm obsessed with Bulova Accutron watches. Anyway. He showed me this. Oh. He said check this out. This is the coolest thing ever. And it was. So I went out and got one. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: No. They're really cool. I think you're going to post these pictures in public.

Dave Jones: I've taken some real. Oh yeah. They're up on my Flickr site. I've got. We'll link that in. High res photos. Yeah. We'll link them in. And I'll be also linking the page which explains the mechanism. Some guy has got a web page. Some Australian guy has got a web page which explains all the mechanism. Has a circuit for it. And everything shows 3D models of the mechanism. Fantastic. Brilliant.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. No. It's really. It's really cool stuff. And you said this is the first transistor based watch. Right?

Dave Jones: It is the world's first transistor based watch. It used. It originally used a germanium transistor. It came out in 1960. And then they switched to NPN transistor because they were having a hard time getting germanium transistors at that point apparently. So they just rejigged the coils to work with an NPN silicon transistor in the mid-60s. I think they made that change. And yeah, it's basically single transistor driving a coil, two coils which then drives a tuning fork. So it's actually a tuning fork mechanism that runs at about 300 hertz. I forget the exact frequency. And the switch is why you can hear it hum. You put it up to your ear, you can hear this thing hum. Now instead of your traditional watches that move the hand like one tick at a time, they go one step at a time, the seconds hand actually continuously moves. Continuously sweep moves.

Chris Gammell: Well, I never realized with the tick too, that's actually based on like a tooth. Like watchmaking is very, very complicated. Yes, it's very complicated.

Dave Jones: And I just sent a link to you that shows the difference between a mechanism and this one. This one's much simpler. It doesn't work. It takes the vibration of the tuning fork and then scales that down to sweep the second hand and the minute's hand and the hour's hand and everything else. So there is no tick tock, you know, back and forth flipping type. I forget the exact names for the watch mechanism part that does that anyway. It doesn't have that. Hence why it hums and not ticks. And it's very cool.

Chris Gammell: I'm sure you, I think you actually recommended this to me, but click spring. So if people want to learn more about like how clocks work, that is one of the best. That is one of the best YouTube channels. Like just like, and especially because of the video quality and everything too. But like the machining is fantastic.

Dave Jones: It's because of the production quality. The production quality of those videos is.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Now I'm more fascinated by the production quality of the videos and the angles he gets and the macro shots he gets.

Dave Jones: No, no, that is very true. The machining is very impressive, but it wouldn't be as nearly as impressive if it didn't have the highly polished video content behind it. I think. I agree to disagree. It shows it all up close. It shows it all up close. No, no, come on. Like if you just watch it from a distance. I don't know.

Chris Gammell: I haven't seen like a crappy clock maker YouTube channel. Maybe that's like a novelty account waiting to happen.

Dave Jones: Anyway.

Chris Gammell: Every set of gears just looks like a circle. There's teeth there. You just can't see them.

Dave Jones: No, sorry. No, no, no. The reason that channel works is because of the video production quality. I'm sorry. That is, it is the number one reason. Yes, his machine is very impressive, but no, it really, you can't, it really highlights it. Sorry. Anyway, we'll stop that argument. Anyway, where are we going here?

Chris Gammell: The Belova.

Dave Jones: Yes, the Belova. 1968. The good thing about the space view is that it's see-through. So you can see through the front. Of course, you can't see the tuning fork because it's like 300 hertz, but you can see the, well, you can see the underside of the transistor. You can see a resistor. You see a diode and resistor and, you know, like.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's like a big resistor in there too. It's like a, you know, it's just a through-hole resistor.

Dave Jones: Yeah, a big through-hole resistor. Just, you know, point-to-point wiring and stuff like that. Right. Right.

Chris Gammell: And that's, I mean, like the simplicity of the circuit is kind of, is kind of mandated by the technology of the time too. It's not like they could get, I mean, they could get maybe a couple more transistors on there, but it's not like there was a whole lot of. Well, you only need one.

Dave Jones: You only need the one transistor to drive this coil.

Chris Gammell: I know that, but I'm just saying that even if you wanted to put like four in there, right, it starts to get space constrained real quick. Exactly. So, yeah.

Dave Jones: So, yes, this was the age before ICs. I mean, you know, they had not put more than one transistor on a chip.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, when did Planer actually start? Planer, I'm furiously Googling.

Dave Jones: I'm pretty sure in 1960 it did not exist, I think. I stand to be corrected.

Chris Gammell: First Planer integrated circuit is fabricated. This is the computerhistory.org museum.

Dave Jones: Quality radio here. It's loading very slow. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Anyways, yeah, it was not quite there yet. Even if it was, but even if it was, like that was such, that was, you know.

Dave Jones: So, space age NASA stuff.

Chris Gammell: Exactly. Yeah, you would never have access to that for, you know, what is effectively a consumer level thing, so. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway, I'm obsessed with these Belova Spaceview watches, so.

Chris Gammell: So, we will be hearing more of these? Is that what I hear?

Dave Jones: Oh, I want to do a video on it, although I don't want to take mine apart yet, because I've heard that if you don't know what the hell you're doing, you can completely screw it. So, I need to learn what I'm doing before I take it apart.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, man, those springs and gears and stuff. Like, that stuff's so tiny.

Dave Jones: I know. But thankfully, this guy's website is awesome. Has all the 3D diagrams, the schematics, everything. So, I can just do a video and post those.

Chris Gammell: I would say buy a broken one first.

Dave Jones: Buy a broken one and try and repair it. Yes, I probably will.

Chris Gammell: Keep one as your watch, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway, mine is a gorgeous example.

Chris Gammell: Does it stay accurate?

Dave Jones: That was the thing. This one was the world's most accurate watch back in the day. Oh, interesting. It was, but, you know, it was like one minute per month, I think. I stand to be corrected, which is nothing. Like, your regular $2, you know, Casio watch beats it, right? But, you know, back in the day, yeah, this was the world's most accurate watch.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, back when setting watches was a thing. Yeah, it was a thing.

Dave Jones: And you had your traditional mechanical watches, be it auto-wind or regular-wind. And this, this was the only other thing that existed. This was the only other technology. And, yeah, tuning fork, and it hums. It's just like I'll put a microphone up to it, and you'll be able to hear the humming. Yeah, you should.

Speaker ?: That'd be good.

Dave Jones: Yeah. It's gorgeous.

Chris Gammell: To circle back for a second, planar transistors, the process, I didn't actually know this, Gene Kernel, developed it in 1959, but it didn't get, it wasn't actually, like, there until the mid-60s is when they started actually getting it in there. Right. And then, yeah. Yes.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: So, there you go. They definitely wouldn't have had a new watch. Because I bet even that transistor in there was pretty expensive then, so.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: 1964, first widely used analog integrated circuit is introduced by none other than David Talbert and Bob Weidler.

Dave Jones: Ah, yes.

Chris Gammell: This is a great page. So, it's got the whole timeline. I'm sure we've been to it before, but.

Dave Jones: I think we have.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Hey, I just thought, should we, for our YouTube channel, our Ampour YouTube channel, for every new video that we upload, might be tedious for back ones, but can we edit in, like, a thumbnail that has, like, instead of our boring Ampour logo, can we, like, put in, like, a.

Chris Gammell: We definitely could, Dave. Just, like, we could update the Patreon page once in a while, Dave. Yeah.

Dave Jones: For those who don't know, Chris does practically everything for the Ampour. I just turn up and press record. So, yes, thank you very much, Chris, for doing that.

Chris Gammell: No problem, Dave.

Dave Jones: You are the heart and soul of the, like, you know, like the Ghostbusters, you know, kind of. Right, right, yeah. Here's the, yep.

Chris Gammell: I'll get a gold watch at the end, right? That's what I'm hearing. You're right. You're giving me one of these things.

Dave Jones: Right. I'm the Peter Vinkman, right? Vinkman. Oh, you're the Peter Vinkman, huh? I'm the Peter Vinkman. Right, right, right. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: You're just doing psychological experiments, huh? You're right. Yeah. Have you seen the new one yet? I haven't seen that yet.

Dave Jones: God, I don't want to see the new one. No, I do. I've done videos reviewing the trailers. No, dude. I don't think you do. Oh, yeah, I did see.

Chris Gammell: I don't watch your reacting to Dave, reacting to reactions.

Dave Jones: I've watched many reviews of it, and it is universally panned. It is universally freaking panned. No, I don't like the idea of it.

Chris Gammell: But you're a purist, too, right? You would be.

Dave Jones: Yeah, but no, from what I've, like, I was hoping to go into it, you know, and I will. I'll watch it when it's available on Netflix or something, you know, like. Right, because that's where it hasn't. I refuse to pay money to go see it. No, no. I do not support the remakes like that, and I do not support, um, what's it?

Chris Gammell: You're not going to support the next, uh, Back to the Back to the Future?

Dave Jones: No.

Chris Gammell: You know they're going to make it eventually.

Dave Jones: No, they're not. That's why we're taking a stand now against this new Ghostbusters piece of shit.

Chris Gammell: Rick and Morty is basically, uh, you know, Back to the Future. Yeah. Anyways. Yeah, anyway. We don't need to be too far into that stuff.

Dave Jones: No, no, apparently it is a dick punch. It is an insult to all the fans. Um, it is just, yeah, this, the guy, poor Feig, just, like, absolutely was trying to push his agenda, and it is, yeah, it's an insult, apparently. And, yeah, I don't like, I don't mind a bad movie. In fact, I like some bad movies, right? Like UHF. Oh, great, UHF. Yes, you were on the plane with Weird Al. Yes.

Chris Gammell: Yes, that happened to me on a flight to, uh, I guess it was, yeah, it was to LA. It was a 6am flight, and I see this guy walk by, and I'm like, man, he's got really crazy hair. Like, he looks like Weird Al or something. And then I'm walking past First Class, and I'm like, oh my god, it is Weird Al.

Dave Jones: It is Weird Al.

Chris Gammell: And then Dave tried to tweet at him, and it didn't, it didn't work, so. Yeah, no. Oh, well. No. Apparently, apparently, you know, celebrities.

Dave Jones: Photo didn't happen, apparently didn't happen, so.

Chris Gammell: Oh, come on, you don't take pictures of someone, you know, that's not cool.

Dave Jones: Yeah, no, that's, yeah, that's not cool.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway, so, yes, I refuse to. Okay. Yes. Bad movies I don't mind, but bad movies that insult you? No. And that's what I've been hearing, so I stand to be corrected on that. I'll watch it myself, but I'm not paying money for it. Anyway, let's not go there, because it's a huge fight.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So, in the world of sequels and remakes, how about that? But, Paul Stauffergan, who's yet to be on the show, even though I've emailed with him a bunch about it, he's very busy. He is launching, or maybe already has launched, I don't know if it's already over. I hope not, that would be kind of shitty. But the new teens he's coming out, the 3.5, oh, seven days left. 3.5 and 3.6. And the crazy thing with the 3.6 is it's got the F7, I think it is, on there.

Dave Jones: Oh, that cape off, is that crap?

Chris Gammell: Oh, man. The STM32, what? He doesn't put the specs in here? But anyways, it's a Cortex-M4, 180 megahertz, with an FPU, and it's just like... I mean, Paul, I love the teensy. It's like, the accessibility of this stuff's amazing, but this is just March of Technology type thing, too, where it's just like, holy crap, there is so much. Which horsepower available? Because this thing's going to be like, you know, the same thing.

Dave Jones: It's a given these days, which is why it's meh to me now.

Chris Gammell: No, but the crazy thing is like, have you seen the audio library he's done? Nope. Oh, man. So this is on the teensy 3.1 and 2, it works as well, but there's a full-blown audio library where you can drag and drop audio connections on there. Sweet. It's just the... Obviously, the magic is in that software layer that Paul and the other contributors on the project work on, right? You know, basically, the whole thing works like an Arduino if you wanted to. You know, you can write your own libraries as well. You can write it all in C if you want to. But the idea is that there's just access to this insane amount of power for... Nothing. You know, 25 bucks, right? It's just insane. And that's why you're seeing these things just in every project now, too. Like, not every project, but a lot of projects. And yeah, it's crazy. So good job to Paul. Good luck with the campaign, of course. And I highly recommend buying one because, like, these things are... Just read the spec sheets. The format changed. The layout of the thing changed a little bit. But yeah, it's legit. And the 3.5 has a 5-volt tolerant. The 3.6 does not. So that's important to know as well. Oh, that's why I got it wrong. It's not an STM32. It's the MK66FX. But it's like a Cortex M4 equivalent to, like, the STM32F7, I think, family. Who makes that?

Dave Jones: What's that one?

Chris Gammell: That's the free scale.

Dave Jones: Ah, free scale. Right.

Chris Gammell: Soon to be NXP.

Dave Jones: Oh, God, yes. Can we talk about this? It looks like we've had...

Chris Gammell: Oh, man, the data sheet already changed. It says NXP. This is the NXP part now. Wow.

Dave Jones: We keep joking about this, that every episode we do, there's a new buyout. I think we've had two. This has two, I think. I don't think we've talked about it. Anyway, Renesys are going to buy Intercel for $3 billion. And on semi have been cleared by $2.4 billion takeover of Fairchild. Have we talked about that before? Is that new or is it now?

Chris Gammell: I don't remember on the Fairchild thing. I think the Renesys thing was new, though.

Dave Jones: Right. Anyway.

Chris Gammell: You know, and there's interesting for the... Well, a lot of it's the history thing. So it's Renesys is doing... It was who? I got lost in my links here. Renesys is taking over... Where is it?

Dave Jones: Renesys are taking on... Oh, Intersil. Intersil. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So Intersil and Fairchild are both, you know, big old names, right? These are not like...

Speaker ?: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: No, these are... So Renesys is an amalgamation of... They are a Japanese-based company.

Dave Jones: NEC and everything. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: So they were basically like a rebranded version of like Japanese conglomerates. On Semi, it was a split out from Philips, wasn't it? With... Hmm. I think... Oh, God. I don't know. But anyways, you posted a map, and that actually... Yes. It hasn't been updated, but that is actually...

Dave Jones: You couldn't possibly keep it updated. Wow, maybe. It's changing so much. And that is a... It's insane. A thing like this, but... It's just crazy.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean, it's hard to keep track, especially because this is an actual image, so you can't search it, so that kind of stinks. Yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, it's rough to see, especially... So Fairchild is like a very early company. I mean, like one of the earliest, so... Definitely. You know, like it's just... Well, and I obviously was whining about linear tech last time, too. You know, it's just these... A lot of these names are going away, so...

Dave Jones: Hmm.

Chris Gammell: That is unfortunate.

Dave Jones: Was Fairchild one of the original Gang of Eight? Like the Trader's Eight?

Chris Gammell: That was the Trader's Eight, yeah. I think. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: To form Fairchild, yes. Yeah. And how many of those are left?

Chris Gammell: Well, so that split out... So from the Trader's Eight... So that was from... What was that? So that all split from the original Shockley, right? So, yeah. And then they all split out. And then... They formed Fairchild. That was... Yeah. And that was Noyce and more. And they split out to do Intel. And then also National Semiconductor came out of there. And then a bunch came out of that. So, like, from National, I think that's where Linear Tech came out of. Intersil, I'm not sure about. So...

Dave Jones: It's just... Yeah. Not so.

Chris Gammell: Oh, here we go. So... In 67, supported by the watch company. Uh-huh. There we go. Tied back in. They founded Intersil. So Intersil was making some of the early watch circuits. How about that?

Dave Jones: There you go.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. But that wasn't until late 60s. So...

Dave Jones: Anyway. Nuts.

Chris Gammell: Yep.

Dave Jones: Anyway. Yep. More buyouts. Next. Yeah. Our industry's just being destroyed. Next.

Chris Gammell: Well, yeah. And check out that... Check out the map. It's definitely interesting.

Dave Jones: No, yes. The map is cool.

Chris Gammell: But the rest is just... It's just, you know, it's just boring-ass corporate merger crap, right? I mean, that's... Right. We lose history, but at the end of the day, it doesn't... It doesn't... Other than, you know, until the parts go obsolete, that it doesn't really affect us. Exactly. But they probably will, so...

Dave Jones: Unless you're nostalgic.

Chris Gammell: Right. Take a picture of the chip company and then... Right. And then throw it away.

Dave Jones: Take a photo of you outside the chip company. Yeah. I remember when they used to be Fairchild, you know? Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. There's a new standard for the ampere.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: You don't seem to care, but, you know, for all you vault hubs out there.

Chris Gammell: But, yeah. Anyway. Well, and we had talked to Jonathan about the... I was getting that confused, because that was for the... That was the mass balance. Remember when we were talking to him about that?

Dave Jones: Yes. Yes. The mass. Yeah. Right.

Chris Gammell: So that was using amps in order to drive forces that balance mass, right? Yeah, do the other...

Dave Jones: And then, yes, that's right. And then they didn't have an exact fundamental reference standard for the ampere and, you know, blah, blah, blah. Whatever. We could have got that wrong, but, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And so people should go listen to that one. That was with... Well, he goes by Professor Cures as well. But we talked all about that in that show. But this is now the amp. And I think what the idea is, is that they have, like, quantum-level transistors that are just, like, squirting some very small amounts of charge out. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's just, like, you know, like... Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. Right. Little bits of charge at a time. But, I mean, I... At the end of the day, like, I don't... Doesn't you start... Don't you start to get, like, with really low currents, don't you start to get into, like, quantum problems? Like...

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Like, not knowing where things are, or how fast they're going where...

Dave Jones: Oh, well, it can be controlled, but, yeah. Well, the answer is yes, but... Make it very cold is how it is. Anyway, I don't... No, I won't pretend to know. No, I'll just shut my mouth now. Anyway, the article makes an interesting quote from the article. The amp air has long been a sort of meteor... Meteorological. Metrological embarrassment.

Chris Gammell: Really? Really?

Dave Jones: The amp air... That's what they claim in the article. It's a sort of... It's just, like, it's contrived. Yeah, it's just... Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Well, it's interesting, because, like, all this stuff... I mean, like John was talking about during that show, too, where it's just, like, it all... It can't... So, it's not like... You know, you can have reference resistors, right? You talk about that all the time. Right. When you're doing, like, current sources, you get those super, super precise resistors. But that's all tested back against some other standard, and it's not a physical standard, either. It's all these, you know, measured and all that kind of crap. So, yeah, at some point, you gotta compare it to physics and stuff.

Dave Jones: Anyway, they are working on the quantum ampere project at NIST. So, yep.

Chris Gammell: Quantum ampere.

Dave Jones: Quantum ampere. Maybe you can get up some nice 3D graphic of how it works or something.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Speaking of measuring things, I just... So, I was talking to a student today that I do, you know, I do, like, tutoring as part of contextual electronics. And he brought up the... Some of the measurement circuits in the Art of Electronics learning manual, which... Right. Which got released, like, a couple months after the third edition got released. But I never got it.

Dave Jones: I don't have a copy of it, no.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So, I just... So, two things that are exciting about this. One, I have Amazon same day now, and I was so excited. Like, oh, man, that's going to be dangerous. So, I literally ordered it at noon.

Dave Jones: Is that because you're near an Amazon hub in Chicago? I'm sure, yeah. How does that work?

Chris Gammell: It's just, you know, like, cities are being near others. Yeah. Right. I'm sure that's what it is. Right. But it was so exciting.

Dave Jones: So, poor old Cleveland was a backwater, was it? You had to wait a whole day.

Chris Gammell: It was... Yeah. Well, yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: A whole 24 hours to...

Chris Gammell: And some people, like... So, when I visited Dimitri in Berlin, he had... Amazon One Hour, or whatever that's called. Wow. Like, they have a one-hour delivery service on the two.

Dave Jones: That's insane. How much do you pay for that?

Chris Gammell: I think the one hour was, like, a small upcharge. It's all, like, included in Prime. So, like, you pay for $100 a year as, like, the flat rate. And then if you use it, it's, like, reduced. So, like, for me, anything two-day delivery is free. Anything one day is, like, $4. Right.

Dave Jones: So, it's subsidized if you subscribe to the Prime service.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Wow. That's consumerism extreme. It's, like, I'm going to buy so much shit in the next year that I'm going to subscribe to a service to make my consumerism cheaper. So, I'm using a projector now. Wow.

Chris Gammell: And I have... I bought a projector screen. And this, you know, this 80-inch screen showed up in my house in a day with no cost to me. Well, no additional cost to me. It's just, like, it's insane. It's insane. So... That's crazy. Yeah. So, I got this new book, though. And it's actually really good. So, that's the other thing that I'm excited about. Not just the Amazon thing, but the actual book itself. See, I didn't realize it was written by... Not by Wynhill and Paul Horowitz. It's actually written by Thomas Hayes, who's another guy at the physics department at Harvard.

Dave Jones: Oh, I didn't know that. Okay.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. And it's... And you know what? And actually, the style is really different, too. And it's really, like... It's really casual. And there was one part... So, I was reading... I mean, I was just reading the first chapter, because I just got it. But there's this one part where he's talking about, like, the... Like, the how to think about circuits kind of thing. Like, that kind of, like, mindset stuff. Like, I love that. That is just, like... Mm-hmm. You know, you're forming these mental models about how circuits work. And he's telling you to be patient. You know, sometimes you just kind of have to get through it. Like, everything... Everything was jiving with what I like. You know, like, it was really, really good. So, I'm super excited about it. I think I'm going to actually go through... So, it's, like, 25 days. It's supposed to be, like, the lab course that they do. And so, it's, like, 25 days worth of experiments. I think I'm going to go do them. I mean, like, just to kind of... Cool. Yeah. ...try my new bench and, you know, have it. That'd be great, right? Nice. So, I'm excited about that.

Dave Jones: And you'll do videos of you doing them?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, maybe. Yeah. Why not? Get into the groove again, so... Sweet. Yeah. Yeah. I'm very excited about this book, though. It seems cool.

Dave Jones: Speaking of Amazon...

Chris Gammell: I was going to say, yeah, as we were talking about it, I was remembering our conversation yesterday. So, what's up with you?

Dave Jones: I am now attempting to sell through Amazon. I've set up Amazon, because you never used to be able to do this, from Australia. This is what actually killed my internet dating book way back in 2000, right? I think I released it in 2000. Jeez, 16 years ago now. Anyway, yeah, because Amazon was the place to buy books, right? And being from Australia, you could not, for the life of you, sell your book on Amazon. It just was not possible. And for another decade, it was not possible. Right. You know, you had to have a US company... They didn't have the infrastructure. No, they didn't have the infrastructure. They didn't have the accounting systems. They didn't have whatever. You had to have an American address, an American social security number, an American bank account. You had to basically live in America to actually do it. But now, it's changed. I'm not sure how... Screw America. Yeah. No, you can... I was absolutely blown away by how well their system was automated, their sign-up process for individual... For international people. Oh, yeah. You know, like... So, we were talking about the shipping stuff. I got to that W8BEN form, right? The famous W8BEN International. And I hate that form with a passion. And when that popped up and said...

Speaker ?: Why?

Dave Jones: It's so easy. Bullshit. No, not for an international person, dude. What do you mean you fill out your address? You basically certify that you're not... No, no, no. No, no. Whatever. Dude, you have no idea how bad it is. Oh, yeah. I'm sure it's so tough. If you do not have a tutorial on how to do it for being an Australian, then you can't

Chris Gammell: Is it different for different countries? I've given these forms out before.

Dave Jones: No, it could be the same for anyone overseas. But anyway, it's... No, it's bad.

Chris Gammell: Okay.

Dave Jones: Anyway, yes, yes, you don't have to fill out much, but you've got to know what to fill out.

Chris Gammell: Oh, okay. And that's the hard part. I'll give you that. Anyway. Sure, sure.

Dave Jones: Right. And I just... Oh, no. This is a nightmare. I was almost going to quit. And they just popped up with the form. They automatically knew I was from Australia. They knew exactly what sections to fill out. They didn't show me the sections that I didn't need to fill out. And I signed it electronically. I didn't have to sign it, scan it, and upload it. Oh, it was magic.

Chris Gammell: So you're saying that the billions and billions of dollars of logistical infrastructure that Amazon has built, the robots that they use in their factories, the seamless integration with payment and shipping and everything else. It was... It was, I signed a form electronically.

Dave Jones: Yep. That's what blew me away. Seriously.

Chris Gammell: I'm looking out for number one, huh, Dave? Oh, that's funny. Anyway.

Dave Jones: So, yeah. Yeah. So I got an account on Amazon. And I can, right now, I could actually, and I did for like a couple of hours, have my meter available on there for sale as a test thing. And you could have ordered it from me, but I've got to ship it. And, of course, the real benefit with Amazon is having them do the fulfillment service.

Chris Gammell: So you ship a huge box of the crap to their factory.

Dave Jones: I ship a box of 30 of them just to test. I don't want to ship 600, you know. Yeah. So I shipped, yeah, I shipped a box of 30 to them. Hopefully, it's currently in transit. So I don't know how the import's going to work. Anyway, we'll see. That's why I'm trialing it. And hopefully, they'll be on the Amazon shelves and they will fulfill it and you'll be able to use, presumably, your Amazon Prime thing. Yeah. Right? You'll be able to use it. I don't end... So usually it'll be like... Do you get free shipping or is it cheap? Because I don't see any option now for me to set the shipping rate once Amazon fulfill it.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, you wouldn't need to because the purchaser in the US would have to buy it anyways, right? Right. So the way that that works is, I think, is that basically if they're part of the Prime program, that it's all kind of priced into the model. It's really, I think what's happening is anyone who's not part of the program is basically subsidizing the people who are. Right.

Dave Jones: Got it.

Chris Gammell: Because shipping is not cheap still, even though...

Speaker ?: No, no, no.

Chris Gammell: No. I mean, they've got these sweet deals with like UPS and FedEx and everything and the USP. So how about this? Amazon is so big that they pay the USPS to deliver on Sundays. So we have delivery from US mail carriers on Sundays because of Amazon.

Dave Jones: Wow.

Chris Gammell: Not for mail though, just for Amazon packages.

Dave Jones: Right, of course. Wow.

Chris Gammell: It's nuts.

Dave Jones: But that's the scale of Amazon. That's why I wanted to try it. And hopefully, because I know there are some people who don't want to buy from me because, oh, Dave's got to ship it from America. I can't get that instant satisfaction. It's going to take a week plus to get here, you know. And like, yeah, hopefully you'll be able to get it on Prime.

Chris Gammell: I think that this is actually really relevant just in general too because, you know, like a lot of our listeners are building stuff as well. And, you know, there's a lot of places to do this kind of stuff, right? Like I like Tindy. Tindy's good for selling stuff like that. There's a lot of other like marketplace type things. Like I have friends that sell on their own site. You know, like you've got a WooCommerce type thing. Like there are a lot of options there. But at the end of the day, like you're saying, you know, like some of the hands-off hassle-free stuff, there's fulfillment houses. It's not like this is a new concept either, right? No, no, no, no.

Dave Jones: Of course, I can do this. But it's not the same as being Amazon. I mean, it's just not.

Chris Gammell: No, no, no. I mean like you mean you could do this like you could ship it yourself?

Dave Jones: Oh, through Amazon, yes. I have the option to ship it myself.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. So I meant though like that there's always been fulfillment houses, right? Oh, yeah. So like where you ship it to a central facility. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: I could use fulfillment houses. But yeah, I could. But it's not the same thing as Amazon. Right.

Chris Gammell: But it's interesting. You read about a lot of logistical stuff too. Like so a lot of it was pioneered by UPS. Not pioneered. But like, you know, they started moving stuff towards these centralized hubs. You know, you could buy space in their hubs and ship stuff out of there or work out of there. And you'd be really close to their logistical centers, things like that. But this is just another layer of abstraction on top of that where it's like now you're kind of hands-off. And you're paying for it, right? You're paying for it with whatever percentage you have to give them. But, you know, from a business perspective, they've sure as hell got the scale. So it's – and I'll tell you like so, you know, me and Dave were talking about this a lot yesterday. As a consumer in the U.S., like I do just about anything just for convenience sake just to buy stuff. Like if it was down to like –

Dave Jones: People will buy for convenience. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I would buy – even if I didn't know what Dave's meter was, if it was similarly priced with another one that wasn't Prime and it was like well-reviewed and stuff like that, I'm like I don't care. You know, like for a lot of things where it's just – I just need a thing. Yeah. You know, like it's just a – Totally. It's Walmart or the web, you know. But –

Dave Jones: Yeah. It's – It's nice. It's absolutely phenomenal. And yeah, I get it even though I don't have the ability here in Australia to order stuff on Amazon like you guys do. Yeah, I don't know. Because we don't have the fulfillment here. The only way Amazon will ship stuff here is via third parties, right? Yeah. Apart from Amazon Books, right? Your traditional Amazon stuff, Amazon Books, Amazon CDs, I think, books, CDs, DVDs. That's about the only thing Amazon will ship themselves to Australia, right? If you want –

Chris Gammell: Well, they probably have a lot of that locally anyways. They probably just have stock there in Australia.

Dave Jones: No. No, they don't. It's shipped from the U.S.

Chris Gammell: Oh, really? Yeah. Is it media mail that goes? Is that why?

Dave Jones: I don't know how it works. But no, the stock is U.S.

Chris Gammell: Anyways, I think as people are – So like Dave is obviously very far along the journey of designing a product, selling a product, things like that. But at some point, if you're thinking about selling a thing, you're going to run into logistical stuff. Oh, shit. And at some point in that journey, when you're standing in line at a post office just cussing and hating life, you're going to be like, how much do I have to pay to never do this again? And these kind of services, not just – other ones will pop up at some point. But this stuff is super important and it's super – from a business perspective, they're doing well because of that, because they're just monsters about their logistical operations. And it's all automated now too, like you said. I mean like you basically print out a label, right? And it goes to one of many distribution facilities. And as soon as you – oh, that's what I was going to say earlier too is like I think that Prime, one day, two day, whatever, will be determined by how many factories or how many distribution points they have your stuff stocked in. Yes, exactly. So if they have like your meters in the five – the four corners of the US, right, or one in the middle, then yeah, everything is probably one day for a lot of people. But if it's only in one –

Dave Jones: That's up for them to determine because I've only shipped it to one location in, I don't know, Idaho or somewhere. Yeah, exactly.

Chris Gammell: And they're good at like being tax-diverse, whatever. Like yeah, that's what they do.

Dave Jones: Yeah, this system is probably so automated that if this thing sells like hotcakes in Silicon Valley, then they might go, oh, we need to ship these over to that warehouse. You know, like that's where most of them are going. I'm sure it's that intelligent. So anyway, it's a trial, so I'll keep you updated. Yeah, that's good. It will be more expensive because they take a huge chunk. I'm talking 16% to 17% I think it is. It's massive. 4% of which is the – you pay about 4% for the fulfilled by Amazon thing. Yeah. And that has to do with the cubic square feet of your product, how much shelf space it takes up. So they actually charge you based on the physical size.

Chris Gammell: Right, but they also do like payment stuff. Like you said you were doing PayPal before anyway. So like there's a lot of these services are – someone's taking a chunk at some point. So it will come out. It's just about how much – you kind of pick your own adventure of how hands-off you want to be.

Dave Jones: Oh, no, exactly. If I was purely profit-driven, it is I make the most profit by selling it and shipping it myself.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I kind of think about it like prototyping too, right, where you just pay a lot up front, right? And if you can make it when you're paying a lot up front, then you can make all that money back by bringing stuff in-house and optimizing your systems later. Right. Instead of being like – if you were going to start a new board, right, and you weren't like, oh, I don't want to use this integrated chip. I'm going to build everything out of discrete transistors. Right. You're going to take forever. You're never going to need it done, right? Instead, put a module down or put a chip down and then go back and optimize it later for cost or whatever you can. But just get it done first and then revise it. You know, that's a much better way. And I think the same applies here where it's kind of – you just fix it along as you go along.

Dave Jones: Yep. Anyway, logistics is hard.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. It sucks.

Dave Jones: If you think hardware is hard, logistics is harder. Right. Because it's not that easy. Like I can't just get some magic fulfillment center to take care of the 160 countries that I ship to.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yep.

Dave Jones: Without hassle. That just does not exist. That option does not exist. Like at the moment, I can only sell to Amazon US customers, I think. But I think I might be able to enable an option where I can ship to more countries, but it still won't solve every country's problem. You know? Yep. So, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, you're buying into someone else's scale, really. So that is nice.

Dave Jones: So, yep. Anyway, it's an experiment. You'll be able to buy it on Amazon soon. There is a product page up there for the multimeter, but it has not available at the moment. Mm-hmm. You know, thing. Anyway, it's up there and I'll eventually sell everything through there if it all works.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, nice.

Dave Jones: But I'll still be packing and shipping myself. But hey, for those US customers who want it next day, then yep. Done.

Chris Gammell: Done.

Dave Jones: Anyway, I do like experimenting with these systems to see what's possible.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, man. You know?

Dave Jones: It's like the crowdfunding thing. I didn't have to do the two crowdfunding campaigns I did, but I did because I wanted to see how the systems worked, you know?

Chris Gammell: And I think it's good that you do a lot of this stuff, too, because you share your findings and stuff like that. Like, it's, you know, there's just so much stuff out there where it's, you know, there's so many systems that you could use that it's nice to kind of get a feel for it without having to, you know, you want to get it right the first time. Other people want to get it right the first time, and if you don't have as much to lose because you already have an audience and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. Or already have a business that you're willing to, you know, try it on. Of course. That is useful. Yep.

Dave Jones: Do we have anything last minute? Anything else last minute?

Chris Gammell: One of the things, so I mentioned briefly that I went to that Pumping Station One meeting last night. And one of the people that were there, they actually went to this White House meeting. So it was really interesting, actually. So people that are listening who are part of Makerspaces probably already know about this, hackerspaces, whatever. But basically, like, all of these government agencies, basically, it was really encouraging to hear about where they're, like, it was like NASA and, like, you know, NSF and all of the different, you know, the different agencies were there, basically. And saying, like, hey, we've got money and we're super interested. They said, what did they call it? They called hackerspaces and makerspaces a national treasure. And I was like, that is pretty badass. You know, like, that, and it really is, it's cool for, you know, like, you don't necessarily think it's going to be, like, you know, like, they can definitely have impact. But it's not, like, going to have one place, you know, building a rocket or something like that, right? Right. You know, does whatever. But when you think about it distributed with a lot of people with educational aspects and stuff like that, too, it's really encouraging. And so, basically, there's a bunch of money out there. So, if people are listening, they didn't hear about it. Make wrote an article about it. They kind of did a recap of some of the stuff there. But it was, like, a one-day unconference with a bunch of government meeting makerspaces. I'm sure this is happening in other countries, too. And really encouraging. It was just, like, super positive overall. Totally. So, it was good to hear about it.

Dave Jones: That's awesome.

Chris Gammell: But, yeah.

Dave Jones: Hmm.

Chris Gammell: And there's a bunch of videos and stuff, too.

Dave Jones: I might be involved in a makerspace. Oh, yeah. Cool. Yeah. Anyway, I won't. It's a personal thing. It's, like, a school thing. Oh, that's great, though.

Chris Gammell: You know, that's a nice thing, too, where it's, like, a lot of the stuff is kind of moving into educational stuff, too. And it's just becoming, you know, like, obviously, there's a lot of anyone who's used a 3D printer is, like, I thought this was easy. Yeah, yeah. No, not so much. No, no.

Dave Jones: I've offered my services as not only, like, a professional consultant for it, but also to, yeah, to teach as well.

Chris Gammell: So, like, instead of a hired gun, you're, like, a hired mouth? Yes. Yes.

Dave Jones: So, you know, anyway, that might be fun, but that'll take a long, that'll take. Yeah. Yeah, and it does. That won't happen overnight.

Chris Gammell: But it's, the fact that it's happening at all is good, right? I mean, that's kind of really just really encouraging and getting people thinking about how to make new things, solve problems. And that's what it really comes down to. Like, you can talk about all these methods we mentioned today, like machining and 3D printing and electronics and everything else. But at the end of the day, it's really trying to solve problems. And if you do that with software, you do it with hardware or whatever, that's really positive.

Dave Jones: So, the thing is, though, with the teaching aspect of it, people ask me, I get this all the time, why don't I teach? You know, and it's like.

Chris Gammell: Well, you do.

Dave Jones: Well, yeah, I do. But see, the thing is, because I'm this content producer with, like, an audience of, what, 370,000 subscribers and, you know, 70 million views or whatever. He subtly slips in. Right? No, I have a big audience. So, it's like, I'm in this mindset where, what would I rather do? Spend a day doing a video that's seen by 100,000 people or do or spend a day teaching 10 kids in a classroom? Like.

Chris Gammell: I think that's totally legit.

Dave Jones: Like, you know, where I have to spend my time on. So, that's like, yes, I know that personally I can, you know, that kid, that one kid could be the next Elon Musk or somebody. Right? And then I can make all the difference. Right, but statistically, probably not. Statistically, probably not. Right? So, yeah.

Chris Gammell: But Elon Musk could be watching YouTube, too.

Dave Jones: Could be watching YouTube as well. Exactly. So, you got greater odds. So, that's where.

Chris Gammell: Let's go for a Hawking instead of an Elon Musk. Come on.

Dave Jones: Right. Okay. Yeah, no, of course.

Chris Gammell: Yep. I was thinking the other day. I know this has been said online, too. But, like, you know, at some point he's going to become the villain. Like, come on. His name's Elon Musk. Like, it's just such a good bad guy name, right? Totally. At some point he's going to be like, no, I control all the lithium. Right.

Dave Jones: In my underground mind. I still love you. It's great. I mean, I don't really care for you. Of course he listens.

Chris Gammell: If you keep making that stuff, it's cool. I heard from him personally that he listens to every episode. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yep. Oh, goodness.

Chris Gammell: If people want to see other links, they can go to the subreddit. That's where we do that stuff. We do have stuff on... You may be listening on YouTube right now. We do have a YouTube channel for this stuff. Just search for the Empire. That's the best way to do it. You'll see a lot of our logo as the image. Unless Dave fixes that.

Dave Jones: All 300 videos or whatever have the same logo on them. Yay.

Chris Gammell: Right. It's an audio show, Dave. Yeah. Whatever. But we also have a Patreon page. We love when people support us there. And what else? Twitter?

Dave Jones: Yeah. All that sort of stuff. Anyway. All right. Catch you next time.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, man. Talk to you soon.

Chris Gammell: Bye.

Speaker ?: Bye.