#312 – Aussie Bound!

Chris Gammell: This is The Amp Hour Podcast. Recorded August 17th, 2016. Episode 312. Aussie Bound.

Dave Jones: Welcome to the Amp Hour. I'm Dave Jones from the EEV blog.

Chris Gammell: And I'm Chris Gammell of Contextual Electronics.

Dave Jones: Who is in New York at the moment.

Chris Gammell: Buffalo, New York, yes.

Dave Jones: Buffalo, ooh, sorry. Is it important to recognize Buffalo as a...

Chris Gammell: Well, if you knew your New York geography, New York is actually a decently sized place. And most people think, oh, New York City, how often do you go there when you were growing up? And it's like a seven hour drive.

Dave Jones: Which is New York City being Manhattan.

Chris Gammell: Right, that's like the exact opposite side of New York State. So, yeah, I'm on the far west side. That's like, Dave, how often are you hanging out in Perth these days? Well, not quite. The distance is way different. But yeah, you know what I mean? Like, it's just the relative.

Dave Jones: Okay.

Chris Gammell: Anywho.

Dave Jones: I could be like, it's like saying I'm in Dubbo or somewhere.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, exactly.

Dave Jones: You have no idea where Dubbo is. Trust me, it's about, you know, a few hundred kilometers out.

Chris Gammell: There we go. Yeah, that works for me. I trust you.

Dave Jones: All right.

Chris Gammell: Maps and stuff.

Dave Jones: So, we have two news items, personal news items.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: This week, start with yours.

Chris Gammell: Well, I should start learning some geography, I suppose, of Australia.

Dave Jones: And you better start overcoming your fear of snakes and drop bears.

Chris Gammell: And you. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I will be, I am currently planning to go to Australia, April of 2017. Almost all, well, not the whole month, but the last three weeks of April. I will be visiting. Me and Dave will finally shake hands and promptly get in a fist fight.

Dave Jones: Yep. Not, not planning. You actually have tickets.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah, I have tickets. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Free, of course, using your bazillion frequent flyer miles that you've racked up.

Chris Gammell: Yes. Traveling has a little bit of a benefit for that. So, I will be. Right. I'll be heading down there. So, what we need from our audience, though, obviously, a couple things. One is, obviously, we have a lot of Aussie listeners. We would love to finally meet. I would love to finally meet all of you. Dave probably knows some of you, but I'm sure there's others hiding in the, throughout the countryside. And we'd love to, I mean, I'd love to meet you and, you know, we'll have some meetups and stuff like that. And. For sure. We need activity suggestions, too, because, well, so, like, you and I had talked a little bit about maybe doing a road trip somewhere, something like that.

Dave Jones: But we have no idea where.

Chris Gammell: No idea where. So, and I'm not going to be.

Dave Jones: Preferably, like, with a tech-related target, perhaps. You know, like, not just, all right, let's drive to Uluru and see the big rock in the center of Australia, you know, like.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: I think we need a. I don't really. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean, that is definitely a thing, but I don't really, I don't know. I'm not super touristy like that.

Dave Jones: We could have done, like, the solar challenge thing, you know, which goes, right down the middle of Australia. The world's biggest solar. What is that? The solar race. The solar car race.

Chris Gammell: Huh.

Dave Jones: Thing. But I think that's more towards the end of each year, I think.

Chris Gammell: Oh, you mean. Oh, it's not like we would do the racing. It's like you go watch the races. Oh, no.

Dave Jones: Well, that's another thing. Like, maybe. Like, if somebody could loan us this solar car, we could, like, go on and, you know, see how long it takes us to get from Sydney to Melbourne with a solar car. You know, or something like that.

Chris Gammell: That sounds like a comedy of errors waiting to happen.

Dave Jones: It does. I know. That's what makes it funny. Like, that's.

Chris Gammell: What? Well, yeah. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, maybe. That is an option.

Dave Jones: You're telling me you wouldn't do it. If somebody loaned us, like, a solar car, you wouldn't do it. You sound hesitant.

Chris Gammell: I would definitely go check out that solar car. I'm not sure I'd ride from. Depends how long the ride. What's the normal ride from, like, Sydney to Melbourne? What's that drive-out?

Dave Jones: Oh, 12 hours. Oh, my God.

Chris Gammell: I'm not much of a road tripper either. I mean, so you said you're a road tripper. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: Absolutely.

Chris Gammell: So, I'm, well, I'm sure we'll.

Dave Jones: You're going to have to educate you.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, well, you know, sing some songs and talk. God, that'd be a lot.

Dave Jones: All I can think of is, like, the Top Gear when they went across America, you know.

Chris Gammell: I'm actually thinking more like Dumb and Dumber, where they're driving across America. Just go, man. Just go. In the car shape with big dog ears, you know. That's right. Yeah, yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway, yes. If you have ideas. I'm sorry, yes, the World Solar Challenge is in October, so that's not going to happen.

Chris Gammell: Right, right.

Dave Jones: So, we need maybe anything that's on in when? April? April.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, April.

Dave Jones: Towards the end of April.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, so that's like the end of your, it's like your fall, autumn, right?

Dave Jones: Yes, autumn. Yes.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Okay.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, so that'll be cool. I also probably will be, you know, going other places, New Zealand, if Dave can't go to Melbourne, maybe down to Melbourne, maybe up the Gold Coast, I'm not sure. It's only three weeks, so, but I'll be poking around different places. So, if there's people throughout the Australasia region that want to send in suggestions, shoot me an email or whatever.

Dave Jones: But what do you want to see? You've already said that you're not a touristy person. I've already tried to suggest things and location. And you go, yeah, Uluru, you could go up snorkeling at the Great Barrier Reef. Oh, yeah. You know, before it dies. I mean, you know. Yeah. That's like a bucket list thing for many people.

Chris Gammell: Okay. Yeah, many people. I don't know. So, like, if I went to, like, New Zealand, maybe, like, hiking, stuff like that, you know, that's... I thought you weren't a hiker. We can do that here. Okay. All right. Cool. They're like, I have better hiking over there, I think, you know.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Possibly. Yeah, ours are different climates, like, different. Yeah. I will definitely have to take you, Canyon, in.

Chris Gammell: Oh, God.

Dave Jones: It'll be nice and chilly in April. It'll be wonderful.

Chris Gammell: Oh, God. No, I don't know about that. Maybe. Maybe. Anyways. You do it. Yeah, as many hijinks will happen. I'm not sure what I'm getting myself into, but it will be a good time, I'm sure. So, yeah. Unbelievable.

Dave Jones: He's coming out here and doesn't want to do anything. I think he just wants to sit in a lab somewhere. Sad. Maybe.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Well, I hear you guys have beer and good people and, you know, so there's that.

Dave Jones: Yep. All right. Fine.

Chris Gammell: What else should we... Anyway. What else is there to talk to you about that? I mean, like, I don't think there's much else there. No, no. We just need suggestions of what we can do. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Like, if there's any, like, cool places that we should check out and then we can, yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Either road trip to them or go to them and, I don't know, whatever. Let us know. Yep. Because we're not creative enough to come up with any ideas. We're just like, nah. It's just lame, you know.

Chris Gammell: So, yeah. Should be good. So, what is your news? You've got news, too.

Dave Jones: My news is that I have, well, I will have a new office.

Chris Gammell: Ooh. Which you've been talking about for a little while, but so you finally found one.

Dave Jones: I've been talking about.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yes. A second location. I am not relocating the lab, so the lab will stay the lab. But I have a new secondary office just down the road. It's within walking distance and it's smaller than what I've got at the moment. But the idea is that it's a bit of a lifestyle change. I will get out of this windowless fishbowl stuck in the middle of the building that I've had for, God, hell I've ever been here now. Five. Five plus years? Five and a half years, maybe? I don't know. No. It's scary.

Chris Gammell: Less than that, right? I think. No. The show's six years old, so you didn't get it that soon after. It was at least a year or two after.

Dave Jones: Well, maybe it's five years this December because I got it in December, so maybe. Anyway, it's been a long time. I've been stuck in this thing. And yes, this new one actually has a window and it has a balcony. Wow.

Chris Gammell: Ooh.

Dave Jones: Novel. Woo-hoo. Stepping up in the world. Yeah, man. Yeah. So the whole idea is that it's also closer to home as well, so technically it encouraged me to walk there. Oh, yeah. And also, you know, it's near to my gym and, yep, I can easily access the gym and, which is good for my rehab and just general getting back into the gym thing, which I've wanted to do. Because my previous gym was like too far. It was too much effort, you know, especially when you've got a family. Like, I leave here at six. Oh, I'll dash to the gym and it just takes so much effort and I'm not home until, you know, quarter past seven or something. And it's, you know, yep. So there's a lifestyle thing there. And hopefully a work priority slash, what's the word I'm looking for? Efficiency. Balance. Still not the word I'm looking for. No. No. I guess efficiency thing is like if I'm doing office type stuff, if I'm editing videos, I'm at the new office. That's where I do. You're looking for. Yeah, focus, focus. Geographical focus.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yes. So separated everything. If I'm at the office, I do office and business and video editing. And if I'm coming to the lab, I do lab stuff. Yeah. I shoot video or I'm doing lab.

Chris Gammell: I had that at my old job. I actually ended up retreating into the lab and like going in there full time.

Dave Jones: Right. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Because like the office was like an open plan. It was like super loud. And I was, I had like my lab spot had a computer already. And I was just like, look.

Dave Jones: That's understandable. Yep. I've done that myself.

Chris Gammell: And I just wanted to be in there the whole time. And I actually don't think it was a good idea though. I think there is, there is a good reason to kind of have that like bench separation kind of thing. You know, like, like you're, like you're moving towards. I think, I think there is that as long as you maintain it. You know what I mean? Like it's okay to sit, sit at a bench for five hours. But I think that if you sat at a desk or like a computer next to a bench, it's not like you're like, you're not absorbing the goodness of the bench energy. You know what I mean? Like having that focal point. Exactly.

Dave Jones: You aren't. That's right. Like me here at the moment, I'm sitting at a desk and I'm staring at my benches and it's like, well, I just sit here in the corner and like, oh no, I might as well have a window and a balcony and a gym that's close. And, you know, not be distracted by.

Chris Gammell: Right. And we should, we should definitely acknowledge that, you know, we were both very lucky to have, you know, that, that separation at all. I mean, a lot of people are working from, you know, whatever space they have. That's totally understandable. We don't mean to sound like that, but it's just that if you do have that, you know, it's able to like, you can go there, have kind of a dedicated plan in mind and get your stuff done instead of. I don't know. I don't know. It's like that weird kind of psychological thing. It's like, if it's always there in the background, it's like, you know, like having like specific bench time is good. I think that's like focus around it too.

Dave Jones: Well, see, that's the thing. Like you might think me sitting here in the lab is better because then it inspires me to go do something. Well, you know, like I've been here for quite a few years now and not, you know, no, I tend to sort of just, I'm a lazy ass. I'll just sit in, sit on the forum, surf the internet, do whatever, you know, like rather than actually get off my ass and do something.

Chris Gammell: So, well, we had talked about, I remember we talked about that a long time ago because we were talking about data sheets at the bench. I remember because we were talking about like a tablet, should you have a tablet for data sheets and stuff. But it is kind of like that draw of, you know, the siren song of the rest of the internet. You know what I mean? Like, it's not like.

Dave Jones: Exactly.

Chris Gammell: You know, like, of course we can access the internet whenever we want to pretty much from anywhere. So there is that, you know, but if it's for, at least for me having like a desktop there is more likely to be like, oh, checking a data sheet because I need to at the bench. And then what's on Twitter? Then you get carried away. Yeah. Yeah. It's just, and then it's not the rabbit hole.

Dave Jones: Whereas if you're on a PC tablet with a small screen, it's like, you're not going to be, you know, going, oh, go surf the forum on my little piddly tablet. You know, no, right. It's just, no. When you've got big, three big screens in front of you and, you know, a lot like a real mouse and it's this, you know, yeah, you sort of get stuck in front of the computer. So anyway, that's the idea. I will try it. Exactly. Yeah. That's good. And I've done this before. I used to edit at home. If you remember many years ago, I used to finish my shoot at like six o'clock or something or whatever time I had to go home. I grabbed my SD card and run out and head home and edit there. I only really remember that because you would. That's when my lab internet sucked.

Chris Gammell: I was going to say, you also forgot your card once in a while. You would be like, oh, I got to run back to the lab. I forgot an SD card.

Dave Jones: Right. Yes. Exactly. Yeah. I'd run off home and, yep. I'd grab the wrong one or whatever.

Chris Gammell: Right. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly.

Dave Jones: So.

Chris Gammell: Sneaker net.

Dave Jones: Anyway, and, and the, um, also I, I have needed more room for like packing and shipping and stuff like that. Um, so that, that was like one of my intentions was to get a, a secondary location for packing and shipping. Well, I found this awesome place that has the balcony and the whole thing. So I thought, aha, I'll just move my office out as well. So, um, but the good thing about it is that it will have room for other people. Right. And this is something I've been, uh, discussing or thinking about lately is that I would, I want to do more, um, tours and interviews and, you know, stuff like that. Those, those types of videos.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Video stuff, right. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Right. Uh, from a content point of view. And I've been saying that for years and years and I rarely get out there and get the enthusiasm, go out in there and do them. Why is because it, it, it's a lot of work going to shoot on site is I hate doing it. It's, you know, when, when you're the onscreen talent, you're the cameraman, you're the audio guy. Don't call yourself the talent. Don't call yourself the talent. I know.

Chris Gammell: How about the onscreen?

Dave Jones: Loose term. Yep. Right. I'm the character.

Chris Gammell: Yes.

Dave Jones: And, uh, yes, I'm the cartoon character and, uh, yeah, no, you've got to do everything. And then I've got to come back and edit the thing. And it's like, well, why don't I get, they're the type of video and they're the type of videos too, that because they're not highly technical content, usually, um, anyone can edit those really, you know, it doesn't require some of a technical knowledge to edit those. So potentially I can hire someone to not only shoot, but also edit outside videos outside the lab, you know, and I've got a, I'm currently working with somebody on where I might have a new channel with new content perhaps, or it might stay on my current channel, but there might be like a series of videos. So that'll take some time to get approvals. It needs approvals and various things, but I'm quite excited by that concept. And yeah, I think it wouldn't work unless I had somebody shoot and edit it. So I have potential location for people to do edits. And before people start saying, oh, you can do edit. Why don't you just send the files to somebody and edit remotely? No, not going to work.

Chris Gammell: Not for 4k video or whatever you're doing these days.

Dave Jones: Not for, I, I'm not even shooting 4k and my, a typical video is 10 gig worth of data and people with a fiber optic to their house might say, oh, that's nothing. I can transfer that in half an hour. Yeah. Well, I can't. So unfortunately, um, right. It's that is somebody physically has to be here. No, I can't mail them a hard drive or something like that. Like it's just no. Right. Okay. So let's not talk about that again. Anyway. So there's, yeah. So I'm hoping that this new office will put me in a new mindset, not only to be more efficient in terms of video I produce, but potentially different types of videos as well. So that's the plan. And if it doesn't come off, it doesn't come off. But I'll be able to steer out a window. I think it's a great start.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: No. Yeah. And, and, and here's the other thing. Like, uh, when I first suggested to the wife that, you know, oh, I should get an office for packing and shipping or for, you know, it started out as like a packing and shipping location. And she went, well, you know what? It might cost, you know, 20 grand a year or something to get it. And she's going, well, does it bring in 20 grand extra in income? And the answer is no, it doesn't. And that's the other aspect to expanding like this is that there is no tangible return. There is no quantifiable return on an extra space, right? It's, it's not like, oh, I've got this extra space. It's going to bring in X amount more income. It doesn't. Unfortunately, it just becomes an additional expense. So it's one of those things that I'm-

Chris Gammell: Leap of faith, really. Yeah.

Dave Jones: It's a, it's a leap of faith that it's, it's going to potentially not bring in more income as such, but, you know, give you more flexibility, do things differently, more efficiently, maybe produce more content in that case, your channel sort of grows overall perhaps. And, you know, it's, but if you ask me, is this guy, no, it's, it's a drain on my, it's a drain on my cashflow. So, yeah. And I've got to sign up for two years. So it's a bit of a commitment. So anyway.

Chris Gammell: Cool, man. Why? I think it's a, it's a good try. It's only a year and it's, it's, it's a worthwhile experiment, right? No, it's only two years. Well, it's, you know, it's, yeah, well, it's not my money. Exactly.

Dave Jones: No, it's like- I think you'll be okay. No, I am looking and I am still looking for a bigger lab, but, you know, they're pretty rare at the moment in my park that I'm in or the two parks that are close to me. So, um, they're not happy.

Chris Gammell: You are, you are in a small window of places to look. So.

Dave Jones: Yep. But if I move out, if I move not only the packing and shipping out of here and move my desk out as well, the lab actually becomes more than big enough, really. Yep. For, you know, yep. For doing stuff. Everything. So, yeah, I shouldn't. So I'm now under no sort of pressure to feel like I have to, you know, move the lab and moving the lab is a pain in the ass. Nobody wants to move their lab, you know.

Chris Gammell: Mm-hmm. Yep.

Dave Jones: I especially don't want to move my lab into a rented place. Because then, oh, if they boot me out for the time, then I'm not going to move the lab again. No thanks. It's like, you know.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, that's, that is a mess.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: Well, cool, man. Anyway. You'll be great. Speaking of hardware labs, did you hear, have you seen this thing about, did you know Facebook has a hardware lab? I guess I shouldn't be surprised by this, but like. Yeah.

Dave Jones: I shouldn't be surprised either, but I kind of, okay.

Chris Gammell: But it's like huge. Like the, like, I didn't realize all the different things that they're doing.

Dave Jones: Physically huge or just a huge number of projects and people?

Chris Gammell: 22,000 square feet. I mean, I don't know what that is in square meters.

Dave Jones: Hang on. Hang on. Yeah. 22,000.

Chris Gammell: In meters. What would it be? Meters squared? Square meters? Meters. But yeah, it's, it's. 2,000 square meters.

Dave Jones: Okay. Yep. All right. That's actually a pretty easy conversion. Okay. So it's roughly 10. Yeah. It's actually like a rough rule of thumb. It's like an order of magnitude. Yeah. That's not bad. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Great.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So.

Dave Jones: Oh, yes, of course. Because there's like just over nine square feet per square meter. Because it's three foot by three foot. Yeah. Three foot. Roughly. So, you know. Yeah. Order of magnitude. Yeah. All right.

Chris Gammell: Cool. Nice. Yeah. But, so pretty big for sure. And, you know, and, you know, not, not the biggest labs out there, but, but still, like I didn't realize.

Dave Jones: Do you have photos?

Chris Gammell: I do. There's, it's on our subreddit, like everything else. It's on. Oh, inside. Yeah.

Dave Jones: There we go. I just haven't opened that tab yet. There we go.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And so, I don't know. Some of it, sometimes it can be, you know, sometimes this is marketing stuff, but, you know, I, but it was more, I didn't realize the things that they were working on. It's like open cellular. And I knew, well, I knew they were working on, they own Oculus, but I don't think that's on site. But, um. All right. You know, this is just kind of getting, this is, there's a lot of, obviously the company I work for has a hardware lab now as well, much smaller, but, you know, it's, it's a, it's a nice one. And, uh, you know, and it's, I think it is interesting that you're seeing this more and more places. Um, but why did I start talking about this in the first place? Uh, new lab, new lab, new lab. Yeah. I mean, you've seen this in a lot of companies, so it's interesting. I think, I think it's, it's usually it's the, the stuff that gets talked about is like, like, so like this one, they have like nine axis mill turn lathe, right? Yeah. Yeah. That's probably not getting used that often. Right. You know, like, I think that it's better to have for a lot of the projects that I see out there, it's usually better to have like a bunch of other mills or a bunch of nomads or a bunch of, you know, desktop type stuff just in terms of volume of like, that's the other thing too. Uh, my alma mater case has a 50,000 square foot place and that's what, uh, Larry Sears was on the show in the past as well. They, that's the one he was kind of running and stuff. You know, I, I always feel like it's better to have a lot of like the, like a broad base of lots of accessible tools because like the nine axis tools or five axis tools, you need basically a professional running those kinds of things.

Dave Jones: Just to actually run it. Yeah. Yeah. Every Joe, every engineer just can't go walk up and go, Oh yeah, I'll just, you know, mill something. And it's not worth it either.

Chris Gammell: Right. I mean like, like that's often, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I'm still kicking myself for not listening to the, I had much, a lot of good advice when I was talking about buying a, a mill back in the day.

Dave Jones: And you didn't listen to them and now you didn't listen in the slightest.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: But that's okay. I mean, that's how you learn, right? You know, there was discussions about, Oh, well you should try and get a part made first or go and make one at a shop elsewhere first and that kind of thing.

Dave Jones: And get a feel for it.

Chris Gammell: I didn't get a feel for it, but just like you could do for the amount of, so like oftentimes the example given for like a, a 3d printer, right? So like for the cost of a TAS six, which is a really nice 3d printer, um, you could, it's like 2000 bucks, right? Right. Minimum. So how many parts could you print at shapeways? Yeah, exactly.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: You could part, you could print probably, I don't know.

Dave Jones: More than you'll ever print.

Chris Gammell: Probably. Yeah, definitely. I mean like, like super fancy prints are probably only 50 bucks if you're doing like FDM, like plastic, right? So that's what, 40 prints. And I mean like, are you going to do that even in a year? Maybe? Nah. Probably not. Unless you're super iterating.

Dave Jones: Yep.

Chris Gammell: So yeah. It is. So what are you saying?

Dave Jones: You don't need your own lab anymore.

Chris Gammell: Am I saying that? I don't think I'm saying that. I guess maybe I am.

Dave Jones: I think you are.

Chris Gammell: I mean there are a lot of these shared spaces too. Yeah, no, there are a lot of these shared spaces.

Chris Gammell: Um, so if you have access for sure, like in city, in city people especially, if you have access, that's good. Um, but yeah, I don't know.

Dave Jones: Like, yeah, here, I mean technically I could go to the local hackerspace, you know, but it's 25 minutes drive away or something. Well, you're more spread out too, right?

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah, yep. And I think that it's different with a hackerspace versus like an actual lab space kind of thing, you know? Mm-hmm. But, yeah, I don't know. I think it's different for electronics gear too, right? But.

Dave Jones: Oh yeah, no, exactly. And, and really for electronics gear, you can kit yourself up and you have to, I mean, because you've got to troubleshoot. I mean, you don't want to, you know, you want to be able to troubleshoot right there and then in your own lab. You don't want to do, you know, it's unlike manufacturing. Manufacturing is different to troubleshooting and actually developing.

Chris Gammell: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Dave Jones: You don't want to be using shared tools to troubleshoot. That would be, I think, that would be a pain in the ass.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, and that's, well, and that's, that's kind of what like, I was thinking about that a little bit when you were talking about your new office space too. Like, when you really think about it, like one of the values of having your own space in the first place is being able to leave stuff as it is, right? And this is actually. Exactly. This also kind of ties into the recording thing too. Like, there is never an easier time. If you set up like a recording studio, like you might end up doing, right? That makes things so much easier. It's the same thing on a lab bench. If you have not even just a test that you're doing over time, but just having your setup ready to go, or in your case, right? That's it. Yep. You have enough space that you're able to set up multiple setups. Like, man, you really can't beat that. I mean, it's expensive, of course. Again, we should acknowledge, but, you know, like having.

Dave Jones: I went to a talk at the Maker Faire on the weekend. Oh, yeah. Gavin Smith.

Chris Gammell: Uh-huh.

Dave Jones: He hasn't been on the show. No. No, he hasn't. Anyway, he develops lots of cool stuff and he talked about this. He actually did a talk on developing how to make stuff, you know? And he was talking, he quoted Adam Savage, who said, drawers are where tools go to die. You know?

Chris Gammell: That is so true, man.

Dave Jones: You know, so if you've got all, you know, if you've got a thousand drawers and everything and you've got all these tools locked away in the drawer somewhere and you don't use it for six months and it's like, you don't know where it is. And that kills your instant creativity. Like Gavin was saying, he got sick of, like he does lots of welding and stuff like that, right? So he got sick of, oh, he's welders away in a cupboard somewhere and then he's got to get it out and then he's got to find an extension cord and it's gone somewhere else to, you know, he can't plug it in. And that just, that just kills you. So he made a specific trolley rack thing with the welding gear on it, permanent cables, everything. And he says, if I need a weld, it's like two seconds. I wheel it out, switch it on, bam. I start going. Everything's just there, you know, ready to go. And otherwise it just kills your creative. He's one of the most creative guys I've seen in like, in terms of the number of projects he's working on. I don't know where he gets the time to do it. It's because he's built these efficient systems to actually do it. So, yep.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Very true. I think I've noticed that personally from, in terms of like recording setups, at least like my being at home at my bench versus being on the road, you know, having to set up even cameras, like simple cameras, right? It's not like I'm doing anything crazy.

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: But like having, having like regular setup cameras, everything ready to go, that makes things easier too, right? I mean like. Preaching to convert it.

Dave Jones: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, of course.

Chris Gammell: Right, right, right. But I mean, it goes the same for, you know, if your DMM's always moving, well, I guess handhelds are different, but like, you know, if you were, I remember Keithley days, I was, you know, anytime someone would ask to borrow a piece of gear, it'd be like, look, I don't want to loan it to you. I mean, like we would, but it would be like. Like you'd have to convince someone because it's like, you're starting to mess with someone's setup then. And it's like, oh, I need that cald meter, you know, that cald nice DMM or something. It's walked away. And then now that's in someone else's setup. And it's like, it becomes like a currency almost.

Dave Jones: That's the problem I have with my lab here. My lab is not, unfortunately not set up as a working lab, like for day-to-day working. It's a pain in the ass for day-to-day working because I'm always borrowing stuff to move benches to put in video, like specific, you know, because like, it's all about the shot, you know, like framing and everything else. So I can't just keep a bench and then, you know, like a work bench as you would in a typical lab and then use that for shooting video. It just produces crap quality, crap framed video, right? It's poor. So I've got to move everything. I've got to, you know, if I want to shoot some soldering, I've got to go over and, you know, set up the cam over there. And like, sometimes I move the soldering iron to where there's better light and everything else. And, you know, like, and oscilloscopes go, I'm always moving oscilloscopes. You think I can find a probe the other day? I've got 20 probes probably in this lab. You think I could find a bloody oscilloscope probe?

Chris Gammell: Right, right. Well, this is kind of an argument against the shared workspace idea too, because with the shared workspace, then it's like, end of the day, because it's shared, you got to clean everything up. And, you know, sometimes the value of leaving something overnight is, you know, like, you know, like, it's like, obviously you have to be more disciplined in general, but.

Dave Jones: But you can leave that project there and then just pick it up at a moment's notice.

Chris Gammell: Right, right.

Dave Jones: And like, actually physically pick it up. You don't have to, oh, it's in a box and I've stored it away for a couple of days. You just leave it on the bench, you know? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: It's almost like you have to, so I guess a best case scenario then for that would be to like, I mean, set up like a true, not a true breadboard, but you know what I mean? Like, have like a, if you're going to be testing, like have a standard setup where, you know, you can like lock down board, you know, so, you know, have good board design. If you're, you know, if you're making boards, have mounting holes, mount it to a piece of wood, right? So it's always in the same, and then carry that piece of wood, you know, so that every day that's all, that setup's all in the same spot. Like that kind of stuff. It does drive discipline, I suppose, or it requires discipline, but it is annoying sometimes. Yeah. So.

Dave Jones: It's, yeah, Gav in his talk said, if you think that you're going to come home from work, you know, you can be the most disciplined person, but if you think that you can come home from work and you're going to spend four hours on your project, you're kidding yourself, you know? Like it doesn't work. Things get in the way. Things get in the way. And it doesn't matter how disciplined you are. Yep. Well, maybe, you know, there's going to be some people out there, oh, but I can do that. Well, yeah, okay, you're the exception to the rule.

Chris Gammell: Well, and it could be true, like, especially, like, I've had periods where it's like, yeah, I'm full bore six months, you know, six months straight, and then, but then there's something happens or there's a break or whatever, you know, like, that's just, it's, it's averages over time, right?

Dave Jones: Yeah. And if you're young, single, working in a startup, you have zero commitments anywhere else in your life, then yes, you can do that, you know? Right. But if you've got a family or whatnot. Yeah. Oh, definitely. Yeah. Like, it just does not happen. So, yep.

Chris Gammell: It's tough. Yeah. Well, I did want to talk about the shared workspace thing, too, because one of the items I had on our list today was about, well, sorry, sorry to say it there, kiddos, but it is mid-August now, which means school's starting up again soon. Not for me and Dave. I mean, we don't, we don't have to.

Dave Jones: My boy's already back at school, so I don't know. Oh, really?

Chris Gammell: Nice, nice. Yeah. Yeah. I was thinking, actually, about the, you know, the people heading into college, and I was thinking it would be good for us to talk about, you know, what are some things to prepare for the new people kind of going to, you know, because we talk about people that are maybe not planning on doing the school route, but, you know, there are a lot of people that are going into electronics, or doing EE, or CE, or, you know, CS, or whatever, and what are some things that we would recommend to prepare yourself for a world and a lifetime of nerdery like you and I have chosen?

Dave Jones: Are you talking about preparing? Yeah, but there's different between preparing yourself for an EE course and...

Chris Gammell: Oh, well, no, no, not just a single course. I mean, like, so, okay, so here's what I was really thinking. I was thinking about, like, okay, so get on campus. What are some of the early things that I would tell younger me to do? One would be definitely seek out the lab, and then, you know, obviously that's an easy one, right? That's on your course syllabus. It would actually be figure out how do I work in the lab after hours on my own stuff, right? Because oftentimes that's a different thing, you know, you'd be able to get access. Can I get materials? Can I, you know, do I need to be trained on certain pieces of things?

Dave Jones: But often they won't allow that for new people. Like, you've got to be, like, you know, in your senior years or something before...

Chris Gammell: Right, so that would be how do I get around that then? I mean, like, that's what I mean.

Dave Jones: Right, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, I mean, because there's always ways around that. You know, I have to switch to get access to the lab.

Chris Gammell: Well, maybe there's better ways to say that or actual better ways to do that. But so, like, okay, so, again, I can give you cases as an example. Yeah, so the main EE lab is, like, yeah, you're not going to probably get in there on just, like, a weekend because... Or maybe you can get in a weekend, but it's usually tied to courses, right? But then that new think box space, that is actually a secondary lab space that doesn't get used as much for electronics. And so, like, that would be one workaround, right? So it would be, like, figuring out that there even is a think box or whatever, you know, if your school has an equivalent, that kind of thing. And maybe that's an option. Another option might be, you know, you don't need to sleep with someone, but maybe you need to go talk to a professor and, you know, express your interest in, you know, work in electronics and seeing if, you know, figuring out who's in charge of the lab and just getting to know them. Or in my case, I actually worked as, like, I was the guy that handed out soldering irons. So I had access to the lab. I was just working there as, like, a work-study program. So that kind of thing, too, right? Where you have access because you have a side job there, right? So that was the kind of things I was thinking.

Dave Jones: But it's more common these days for unis to have, like, you know, maker spaces and stuff like that. Yeah. Back in my day, you know, that didn't exist, really. Right. Right.

Chris Gammell: It might have been someone's garage that was nice enough to share with other people, but probably not, like, an on-campus presence thing. I don't think anybody did that.

Dave Jones: And for me, I've always had my own lab since I was a kid, so it didn't really matter. Yeah. You know? So, yeah. It wasn't that important. Yeah, that's true.

Chris Gammell: Well, let's see. Other things. So I think there is the people aspect, which Dave usually yells at me about, but I think it's very important. So maybe not just for lab access. I would say also if you're interested in, you know, clubs or certain types of research, that kind of thing. Like, I wish someone would have told me much earlier in my college career, like, you know, that you could go to a professor and be like, look, I just, I'm interested in what you're doing. I want to help out. You know, there's no guarantee it'll work out, but, you know, you might be able to work on something part-time or...

Dave Jones: They'll go, oh, free labor! Exactly.

Chris Gammell: Right, right. They have grad students, but the grad students don't want to be there. Right. And so, I mean, like, having some enthusiasm just about that stuff. You know, so, like, I would say take a look, take a look just at the roster, you know, especially at the beginning. So, again, I'm just going off my experience here, but at the beginning of the semester, especially, like, a lot of the younger professors who I might have been interested in talking to and hearing about the research, working with them on the research, they all get kind of slammed with the whole, like, they usually get stuck with advising. So, like, you have to make sure you're separate out of that. But if you ping them beforehand or if you, you know, take out the coffee or lunch or whatever, you know, like, there's other ways to do it other than looking like an advisee or, you know, brown-nosing student, right, actually showing interest in what they're working on. And, you know, they all list their, everybody has websites for their professors, what they're researching, stuff like that. So, if that is a route you want to go, that's definitely possible.

Dave Jones: And I was a boy, there were no websites.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. And then, you know, like, on-campus club things, right? So, I mean, again, there's a lot of shuffle at the beginning of your, you know, at the beginning of the year, stuff like that. But, you know, just kind of figuring out, like, another thing that I kind of regretted was just, like, I learned about the, some of, like, the solar car team, stuff like that, that was happening that I didn't even know about until way later. You know, it went way too late, right? Yep. But, you know, so, like, that's, it depends on the school, obviously, funding, you know, it's, but, you know, if it doesn't work out at first, or if your school doesn't have it, you know, you might be able to figure out other ways to start one.

Dave Jones: Some schools have nothing, you know, they have bugger all. Right. So.

Chris Gammell: But even just finding, like, finding a cohort of people that are interested in the same things, right? I mean, like, if we're being honest, right, like, if I think about, again, me back then, I was not super into all this stuff, but, you know, like, I think about now, like, if I, if now Chris could have talked to then Chris, I think that now Chris would have found a lot of people that were interested in it, you know what I mean? Like, there are people that are similarly interested, and, you know, if you're listening to the show, you're probably interested in electronics, or you're really bored, and. There are a few. Yeah.

Dave Jones: To know nothing about it, but they actually. Yeah. Listen. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Right. But I just think. Great. I think there are. I think there are just resources for that kind of stuff. Just kind of finding like-minded people that are interested, and you never know.

Dave Jones: You never know you're lucky in the big city.

Chris Gammell: What's that?

Dave Jones: You never know you're lucky in the big city.

Chris Gammell: I guess not, yeah. What was the last thing? Oh, and if you are in school for it, and you're not particularly interested outside of it, I mean, I think that there's benefits, obvious, to, you know, being interested in it more than just the school portion. But I would also say, don't be afraid to go, you know, drink some beers and chill out once in a while, too. It's not like you have to be, it doesn't have to be your whole life. You know what I mean? Like, I know that there's like that, what was that thing? Oh, it was Shitty Watercolor. What? It was, so Shitty Watercolor is this guy on Reddit who basically takes comments, and then he draws them in watercolors. Oh, right. Right. And he posted this thing on Twitter the other day, and it was a guy scolding his cat for, you know, drinking too much milk and being sick. He's like, ha ha, you don't know when there's too much of a, you know, consuming too much of a good thing. And then the next frame is the guy in front of his computer, and it's, he's rolling on the ground being like, I'm so lonely, because on the computer screen, it's showing like talented Facebook people or something, talented, beautiful Facebook people, you know what I mean? And it's like, I feel, I feel a ton of stress from, you know, just scrolling through Twitter and seeing other people, seeing the projects people are doing and be like, oh my God, I don't do anything. I, I'll never do that. You know, it's like, I guess the other piece would be like, you know, take it easy on yourself and just find your stuff that you like doing, because college or whatever you're doing is going to be stressful enough anyways.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: I'm just, just dishing out the advice here, Dave.

Dave Jones: Sage advice from Christopher J. Gamble.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Right. Next. Yeah.

Dave Jones: We flogged that one to death. That's a dead horse. Hey, I went to an auction today.

Chris Gammell: Oh, something new.

Dave Jones: Yeah, I get out a lot, don't I?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So what were you, what were you bidding on?

Dave Jones: Spectrum analyzer. Oh, interesting. There were two, um, Spectrum analyzers, um, Agilent, um, E4407Bs for those playing along at home, like 26 gig. Like, serious. Damn. You know, like, yeah. Yeah. I don't know what the original-

Chris Gammell: Do you actually have a need for that or just prospecting?

Dave Jones: Of course not.

Chris Gammell: Of course not.

Dave Jones: They're up for auction. So I, I went, damn. I'll, uh, yeah. If I can pick up those for a song, why not?

Chris Gammell: Would it be like a teardown thing or like a-

Dave Jones: Yeah, yeah. It'd be a teardown thing maybe. Oh, okay. Yeah. Yeah. Or a repair thing if they'll fold you. Or, or whatever, you know. Gotcha. I get their, their ex, um, their ex, uh, like, was it Navy or something? Anyway. So their ex-defense force, um, stuff as most of this stuff is, you know. Yeah. Nobody tosses out stuff like this. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway. Right. Especially two at a time. Yeah. Yeah. Two at a time. Yeah. And wow, were they crusty. Um, you know, these are like, you know, like, yeah, like $20,000 spectrum analyzer. And one of them had obviously been dunked in salt water. Um, and, and, and like the other had been like, guys, don't dunk your spectrum analyzers

Chris Gammell: in salt water. You don't need to do that.

Dave Jones: And the other one was, yeah, had been used in a salt water environment. It was all rusty and it did sort of like power it up. And, um, it did power up and sort of the scream was all funny and all sorts of errors. And it was, yeah, it was a sad puppy. And, um, they still went for $3,300 or something. Yeah. These things like, I, I actually met the guy who actually won them. He was like a ham. And, um.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. And, uh, he said, yeah, I'm, I'm, he's actually nine weeks away from, from retirement and, uh, it's his hobby. He's just done this project. Actually repairing this sort of stuff. Yeah. And, and he, he's got a similar one. Um, so he wants these as, uh, parts units and things. So that's probably expensive parts units. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: You know, well, but I'm sure that the, the good unit was probably, probably goes for a lot more, right?

Dave Jones: Well, the, well, the good one, well, the good in quote marks, yeah, it's needs extensive repair, but it's probably like, it's probably like rusted traces inside that are being eaten away by all the corrosion. And, you know, like, ah, no, I couldn't imagine. Like I thought, okay, if they go for like a couple of hundred bucks, I'll pick them up just for like teardowns because my income for the video would like pay for them, you know, um, maybe. And, you know, so I thought, oh yeah, maybe they're worth a couple of hundred bucks. And the bidding started at a thousand bucks. I was like, nah, I'm out straight away. Like the only two that were going, sorry, the only two that were going for it were this hand and was the old ham guy. And, uh, one of the, uh, one of the professional eBay, uh, gear sellers. So yeah, they were just, yep. But anyway, the ham.

Chris Gammell: Have you, have you ever actually like done a repair on something that crusty? I mean, like, do you?

Dave Jones: Not that crusty. No, I would, no, I would. You wouldn't bother. You wouldn't bother. Once, once you know salt water has contaminated your board, then it gets under the solder mask and then just starts eating away the copper.

Chris Gammell: Oh, good Lord.

Dave Jones: So, you know, long, long term, no, short term, you might be able to fix it long term. If it's gotten under the solder mask, you're screwed. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Well, and it's like one of those things where even if you clean it up real nice, it could be like an error, like you don't see it. Right. And it's just like intermittent type crap that.

Dave Jones: Well, this happened to my Apple, uh, Apple Lisa computer. Right. The old, uh, Lisa I had, if you've seen that video, I did a tear down on that. And, um, I was hoping that that that's repairable, right? Cause it uses all old through hole tech that, you know, you can easily repair this sort of stuff and ensure you can get schematics for it. And then the battery leaked in that thing and the acid all over the main processor board was eaten. You'd see all the tracks eaten away under the solder mask. And it was like, wow. If you had, okay. If you had a couple of hundred hours to spend it, you might be able to mod wire and repair and dig up every like hundreds of traces. But nah, it was like too far gone.

Chris Gammell: So that's too bad.

Dave Jones: Yep. Hmm. No, once that rot starts, it's, uh, it's no good.

Chris Gammell: You had posted about the, uh, amateur radio that someone posted on the EV blog forum, right? About the, their, um, CCC presentation. I didn't get a chance to watch it. Did you watch it?

Dave Jones: Oh, I have not. I have not watched the presentation, but I was, um, I did poke my head in, in the forum discussion on that. And, um, yeah, it's basically, what is it? The revival. I'm trying to find the tab here. It's the revival. The death and rebirth of amateur radio.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: The death and rebirth of amateur radio. And it was a talk. Somebody gave a, um, sorry, riot, Ryan Sayre, rebooting a hobby, how modern digital comms are, blah, blah. And he spoke at some electromagnetic field conference.

Chris Gammell: Oh, right. Oh, EMF.

Dave Jones: Oh, I don't know.

Chris Gammell: Oh, that's EMF. Okay. EMF is a, that's actually a conference that just happened in, um, uh, a field in England. Right. Okay. Yeah. It's a, it's a fun name. Electromagnetic field. Get it? Yeah. It's a field conference. Get it.

Dave Jones: Get it. Yep.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Chuckle, chuckle. Yes. All right. Um, and yeah, I have not watched the video, so apologies, but, uh, yeah, it's like people are talking about on the forum, you know, how can you reboot ham radio and stuff? And, um, I went, well, you know, like somebody pointed out that the communications aspect of ham radio is practically dead. You can't revive that. It's not like you can convince somebody that. Right.

Chris Gammell: Because we have the internet, right?

Dave Jones: Yeah. We, we, we have that, right. We have the internet. Oh, you can, but you can talk to anyone around the world. It's like, no, you've got to find another angle. And, uh, one, one, one angle that immediately, well, sprung to mind and, um, was that, uh, in the U S at least, I'm not sure about other countries, but all these, uh, all of these end of the world prepper type people, you know, these preppers, you know, you've got like TV shows with your preppers and, you know, like, I know what you mean.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. Those anyway, they've got, it's so popular. There's like millions of these preppers, you know, that are, you know, you know, the governments, like the civilization is going to collapse and everything. These, I thought these were actually the perfect people to get involved in this sort of stuff. Like if there's millions of people there that are really dedicated to this, like, why aren't they ham radio? Like you think that, you know, in a crisis, that's one of the first things that's going to go down. The internet's going to go down, the phone system. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But that's not a hobby. That would be like a, that'd be like a functional type of thing, right? Where like, I need to communicate.

Dave Jones: It'd be a functional thing, but hey, at least get them on, you know, at least sign them up.

Chris Gammell: I mean, to be completely honest, if, if any kind of thing like that ever happened, uh, it's not going to matter if you have a license or not. You know what I mean?

Dave Jones: No, but the fact that you actually have a ham radio will and, and you've got to teach these people, right?

Chris Gammell: I guess so. You've got to teach these people. It's like, I think the, I think the security field, obviously, you know, we've had a lot of those people on this show, right? So like Mike Osman and, uh, Colin and, you know, like everybody doing stuff with the, the digital mode, stuff like that. Right. I think that that, um, I think that's driving a lot of interest as well. Just being able to view the spectrum, program spectrum, that kind of stuff. Um.

Dave Jones: Yeah. But that's like, well, that is sort of transmitted as well, but it's mostly reception type stuff.

Chris Gammell: No way, man. It's both. It's both.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Okay.

Chris Gammell: I think it's actually, it's, it's just about removing. So I think the reason that works so well is that basically all these tools are removing the entire RF layer. You know what I mean? Like it's not like.

Dave Jones: Oh yeah, totally.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And that's, it's like abstracting out that whole thing. And so it just becomes a communication medium instead of like, you know, like, so at least from, you know, I have my technician license. I have not used it. I don't really plan to. I just did it for the test because I was interested in getting through that and getting a call sign. Um. But I mean, like there's a lot of gear heads too.

Dave Jones: And your call sign is?

Chris Gammell: Uh. KD art. KD eight R and D.

Dave Jones: R and D.

Chris Gammell: R and D. Yeah. I always liked that.

Dave Jones: So you could choose that? You chose that? No, no.

Chris Gammell: That was just random. Like it was just random. Good luck. Make sure.

Dave Jones: Right. Okay. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Um, and, uh, was, oh yeah. So there's just a lot of gear heads, you know what I mean? Like, and for a lot of that stuff that I think that matter, I mean, it still matters, but you know, people aren't necessarily, you know, like contesting and stuff like that. There's, you know, you, it's not quite as big. Like, uh, I shouldn't really speak about that cause I don't really know, but I feel like a lot of stuff can still get done. A lot of interesting things can be get done without having the best gear. And, uh, these days because of these digital modes, stuff like that. I think that's really, if there's going to be anything, that's going to be it.

Dave Jones: That's what's going to, um, yeah, but digital mode modes, not magic. You've got to transmit at five, 10, 50 Watts, you know, like, you know, that can't just magically happen because you've hooked it up because you're sampling at a computer. You've got to have, you know, right.

Chris Gammell: But just like before you can buy, you can buy that equipment instead of build it. Like there's, there's obviously people that are doing low power modes.

Dave Jones: I don't think many people are into ham radio are doing the digital thing. I stand to be corrected, but I, and maybe that's the problem, right?

Chris Gammell: Maybe.

Dave Jones: Maybe.

Chris Gammell: Like I said, I'm not part, I'm not part of it. So anyways, there is, I think what we're getting at is there's a video. Right.

Dave Jones: There is a video. Go watch it.

Chris Gammell: There is a video, right.

Dave Jones: There is a forum thread. Go and put your two cents worth in how to resurrect.

Chris Gammell: That's what the forum's there for. Yep. That's right. Yeah. Yep. Well, I did bring up Osman and the hack RF and there was an item that is damn impressive. So a guy built a homemade 30 megahertz to six gigahertz vector net network analyzer on a PCB from Oshpark. He did all of the, I said, I'm sorry. I'm saying, I'm saying he, I don't know if it's he, sorry. But, but basically this entire build was done on an Oshpark board with simulated strip line stuff. And the software's built on hack RF software, the hack RF base and there's tons of schematic stuff. It's just like, it's nuts to me that people are building this stuff. That's insane. Yeah. But it's a nice layout and in KiCad, mind you. And yeah. And it, and it seems like it works up to six gigahertz. So that is damn impressive. So definitely worth checking out. Yep.

Dave Jones: Who, who did that? That's, let's name them.

Chris Gammell: Can we? Henrik, Henrik. Forst. Henrik.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Awesome.

Chris Gammell: Yes. And all this stuff at the end, it says, I'm not selling these, but you're interested to make your own. We're looking at the design files, all hardware, firmware, and processing software is available on GitHub. So.

Dave Jones: Brilliant. Absolutely. Really awesome. Yep.

Chris Gammell: Yep.

Dave Jones: There's a lot of work's gone into that. That is, that is phenomenal.

Chris Gammell: And you know, like that, so that's another enabling factor these days too, right? I mean, like that makes a big difference being able to have, uh, Oshpark boards simply. And, you know, it's not just Oshpark, but you know, obviously. Oh no, that's got nothing. We're big fans of Oshpark.

Dave Jones: No, it's, no, it's a modern component that you can get.

Chris Gammell: I'm saying that in general, like these days of just the accessibility, you know, the, the era that we're in of accessibility of components. And, and, uh, and boards making and stuff like that. Yeah. And, uh, it's, it's a, it's a good time, you know? So, so.

Dave Jones: Crazy, crazy, crazy.

Chris Gammell: I don't, I don't actually, uh, you know, like, so people like lament how hobbies have changed and how things like that. Like most of the time I'm like, yeah, you know, like if it's going to survive, it's going to survive. And if it doesn't, like it's, this probably doesn't mean to, it's not meant to. Right. Right. I, I don't, I don't feel much. Um.

Dave Jones: Oh, it's going to, like, it's always going to survive, but.

Chris Gammell: Right. It's just not going to be as big. Will it flourish and have a. Right. Yeah.

Dave Jones: It's not going to have a, it may not have a rebirth like hobby electronics did. Hobby electronics had a rebirth through the hacker maker movement. Absolutely. No doubt about it. It was a massive rebirth.

Chris Gammell: Mm-hmm.

Dave Jones: Right. It was dead. And then all of a sudden people doing electronics again. Unbelievable. You know. And that's why we have Dave. It's possible. It is possible. Anyway, ask me about Maker Faire.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah. How was Maker Faire? So, uh, I saw some tweets. Uh, obviously you said you talked to, I've already forgotten his name. Uh. Or you saw someone talk.

Dave Jones: Mick? Mike? No? Who? What?

Chris Gammell: You were talking about a talk that you saw? I forget what his name was.

Dave Jones: Oh, yes. Gav. Gav. Gav. Gav.

Chris Gammell: That's right. Yes. So, what happened there? What was, what else did you see? Anything good?

Dave Jones: Uh, no. Unfortunately, it was very similar to last year. It was, it was a bit smaller than last year. Why am I asking you about this then? I know. Well, because it happened. Hey. And, you know. Anyway, it was Maker Faire. Yeah, it was a little bit, um, probably a bit smaller. There were a few ones that were there last year and weren't there this year. Um, I'm not sure why. Um, but granted, there were a few new ones. There was some interesting, um, stuff. And thanks to everyone who came up and, uh, said hi. There was an Amp Hour t-shirt.

Chris Gammell: Nice. Just one? Oh.

Dave Jones: Yes. Yeah, I tweeted. Well, it'll be in the video. I've got an Amp Hour t-shirt in the video.

Chris Gammell: Oh, cool.

Dave Jones: Nice. And, um, yes. And, uh, people come up and give me stuff to tear down and show me stuff. And, yeah. It's fun.

Chris Gammell: That's great, man.

Dave Jones: For, for, for, for me, the Maker Faire here is more about meeting people than it is seeing stuff. It's like, oh, yeah, there's five 3D printer stands. You know, like.

Chris Gammell: I think that's actually, well, at least for me as well. I, I totally agree. I mean, I'm, same thing. Like, I don't really see much new stuff. But the reason to go is because there's so many people there that are kind of similar minded, right? That kind of.

Dave Jones: Exactly. And, and it's a catch up. You know, it's my yearly catch up with everyone. Yeah. Right. You know, because I don't go to, you know, I don't go visit. Dave comes out of his hidey hole. Yeah. Exactly. Once a year.

Chris Gammell: Right. He sees a shadow. Once a year I'm allowed out. Goes, goes back to the lab for six more weeks of winter. Oh, boy.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Cool. So, it's good. Yeah. It's, you know. And meeting old and new people. And some of the stuff people are working on, though, is phenomenal. You know.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. What kind of stuff? It's just like. Because it's another thing. Like, so, like, I mean, I like control through, you know, like, Hackaday.io, stuff like that. Or Twitter. You know, just seeing what. You know, I kind of talked about that, that anxiousness about seeing all the cool stuff people are working on. Right. It is kind of anxiety inducing sometimes of like, oh, I'm not doing enough stuff. But at the same time, it's like, damn. Like, I love to see it still. You know. So.

Dave Jones: Well, I hate to say it, but for me, it's not the electronics. I don't see any interest in electronics in there. Maybe because, well, electronics is just. You know. I, I, I, like, nothing surprises me much. It's more of the same. You're saying.

Dave Jones: You're saying. Yeah. Nothing surprises. That's the field I'm in. So nothing really surprises me that somebody's working on some electronics project. It's always the other stuff that people are working on. For example, not only, this is a coincidence. Um, Gav, who did that talk, he said he's working on a ball bearing particle accelerator. Right. And then, like, I'm not kidding. Yeah. Anyway. Um, half an hour later, I had, uh, a viewer come up to me and say, hey, I've, I'm having this Kickstarter in soon. And I want you to, you know, I want to send this into the mailbag. It's a ball bearing particle accelerator. And it's like, awesome.

Chris Gammell: So like how, uh, uh, what's his name? Leipzig and, uh, uh, uh, not Newton. Is it Newton? The, you know, like how the calculus was basically invented by two people at the same time. So Leipzig.

Dave Jones: Oh, right. Yeah. Leibniz and, uh, Newton. Leibniz. That's it. Yeah. Yeah. Leibniz. I think. Yeah. I think you're right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: And, uh, anyway, so it's just sheer coincidence. Both of them were working on that. And it's the other, it's, it's for me, the interesting stuff is the non electronics stuff. Like, like I met this guy who was building, whose plans to build in the middle of, um, Australia somewhere, I don't know, or, or the middle of our state somewhere. Um, I, like a Stonehenge, like a, like a, well, kind of like, like a, um, you know, a solstice thing and he, and he like brought in this, um, panoramic photo that is done of the location. And he's like spent a year researching the heights of the rocks from the certain location and for, you know, the summer solstice, the winter solstice. And so they all got to line up and he's going to, and he's 3d printing these rocks that he wants to build. And he's going to build, you know, these 15 meter high rocks and he's looking, you know, and, and this thing's going to.

Chris Gammell: You mentioned, you mentioned Stonehenge and I can't stop thinking about, uh, this is Spinal Tap where they built Stonehenge, which is only 18 inches tall.

Dave Jones: No, this is like, like 37 ton rocks. Like, you know, it's interesting shit like this. Fantastic.

Chris Gammell: I can't stop thinking about this is Spinal Tap. Oh, goodness. Anyways.

Dave Jones: Maybe we can get a screen capture of that and we can include it as the photo for today's episode. Anyway, it was like real interesting shit like that. Yeah, that was really cool. Doing biohacking stuff, you know, really fascinating stuff. See, okay.

Chris Gammell: So I think, I think the, the problem and, uh, the, I, the problem I always have, and it's always the wrong thing to say. And it's why the, why is always the wrong question in those kinds of situations. Like why are you building Stonehenge? Exactly. You don't ask why you just say awesome.

Dave Jones: I know. You just say awesome. And I want to go see it.

Chris Gammell: You know, it's like, I still in my mind, sometimes I'm like, I'm like, I'm like, I'm not going to say why, but it, you know, the answer is it doesn't matter, Chris. It's not up to you, you know, because they're doing cooler things than you. So, so yeah.

Dave Jones: Anyway. So the takeaway is I always come away from Maker Faire being amazed and, you know, surprised by the non-electronics stuff. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Right. Right. Right. Yeah.

Dave Jones: It's all the, yeah. The other, you know, the interesting physical things that people are building and stuff. So. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Like machinist stuff always does that for me too. Oh yeah.

Dave Jones: The machinist always does it for me. You know. Yeah. Yeah. A highly engineered machine.

Chris Gammell: I saw, it was two years ago, I think. But the one where they were built, they built a blown in injection mold, wax mold machine. It was made with like, it was made out of a reclaimed water fountain cooler to actually cool the mold and stuff. It was like, it was fantastic. Yeah. That kind of stuff. Like, but yeah, there's always something like that. And it's great because, you know, like you said, I mean, it kind of re-inspires, you know, like it kind of makes you think about new things. So being around people like that, there's a lot of, there's a lot of good, good vibes there. So that's good.

Dave Jones: Yep. Nah. And so what about the. And, well, and, and the thing is other, two of the maker spaces here in Sydney, they really focus on non-electronics stuff, you know, textiles and woodworking and all that, you know, like they, they really focus on non-tech type stuff. So.

Chris Gammell: I was talking, what was I talking to about? I was talking to someone who was a costumer and I was just talking about, you know, I used to know how to actually use a sewing machine, but I actually haven't done it in a long time. But like, that is such a, I mean, like in terms of like, you know, I'm not huge in wearables, but like that is such an important skill in general, just to be able to like, you know, understanding how contours work and clothing and stuff like that. It's just, it's really interesting, I think. Yep. So. Yeah. Yeah. There's a lot of good skills to have. I think it's often what it comes down to. Whenever I'm talking to someone that, you know, they, they talk about, oh, I want to get into electronics. Usually that's a conversation, but really anything, right? I mean, the most important thing in any new field that you go into is just having that, having a project that's even close, right? Just anything, like what do you want to build, right? It doesn't matter. Like just, you know, have one thing in mind. So like if you want to do textiles, if you want to do, you know, like, like have a coat that you want to make, right? And just have that one focal point. Otherwise, because if you just say, like I have people that talk to me about KiCAD, right? And they're like, well, I just want to learn KiCAD. I'm like, no, no, you don't want to do that. No, no, no. You need a thing.

Dave Jones: That's boring. No, you need a thing to make.

Chris Gammell: You need a thing to build. And then it's like, you'll learn everything you need around that, but like have that goal in mind of the thing or else you'll never, you know, because no one wants to watch boring ass videos of me talking about KiCAD unless you're stuck. And then, then that makes sense, right? So.

Dave Jones: Oh, this is the other thing that came out of Gav's talk. He wouldn't let me film it because it wasn't polished enough. So anyway. Yeah. Come on, Gav.

Chris Gammell: Seriously. It's fine. Anyway. It sounds like a good talk from the outside, I got to say.

Dave Jones: It was good. How to make stuff, you know, like it was just fairly generic like that and different materials and stuff like that, that is working on. Like, for example, there was this one thing where he took a sheet of titanium, right? And he figured out that, that you can, that you can corrode titanium at different voltages and depending on the voltage, it's a different color corrosion. That's cool. So he actually did this color map. He actually mapped voltage versus color for titanium corrosion. And now he wants to, you know, do like a multi-axis machine to actually paint corrosion onto titanium. That's a cool idea.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Brilliant stuff like that. You know? Yeah. Anyway, that's an aside. He was saying that you've got to set yourself little goals during your project as well. If you just have one big goal at the end, I'm going to produce a software to find, you know, that guy who, who wasn't Heinrich, who made the, you know, the V&A. Right. Don't start with that. No, no. No, no, but you could. You can start with that with the goal. But if you just try and do everything and then it just suddenly either pops out at the end and works or doesn't work, then you're, there's no satisfaction in the middle. You've got to go work on this block, get this prototype, this block, this circuit block, get that, have a goal for that block. That block must work. And then boom.

Chris Gammell: Well, and yeah, and actually that's another good point too is because it's like sometimes the right answer is to not want to build everything, you know, use a module and, you know, stick a couple of modules together and pick one thing that you really want to learn about at a time. Right. Yes. That's a good point. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Absolutely. And, but have little goals along the way. Otherwise you're losing enthusiasm and the project will never get finished, which is.

Chris Gammell: Yep.

Dave Jones: Totally true.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, man. Momentum. That's all that matters usually. It's like, that is, that is the back to the bench, right? That's where it comes from. So again, you know, having that momentum because your stuff's all set up and you just walk back in and do it. So.

Dave Jones: So what do our listeners get out of Make Affairs and other shows? Tell us. Is it the non-tech stuff? Is it the electronics that really inspires you or is it the other stuff? For me, it's the other stuff because I know I can do the hardware, you know, like I know I can do the electronic side of things. It's like, eh, you know, it doesn't necessarily inspire me a huge amount. But people are doing interesting, different stuff.

Chris Gammell: Right. I mean, for me, it's usually like, it's the connections that later in the year when I'm like, oh man, how do I do this? Then I can call someone up or, you know, send them a message or something. That, man, that is, that's killer, right? I mean, that's the same thing of like when you're, when you're stuck in the moment, you don't know what to do. You can go on a forum, but you're not always going to get an answer. Right. But if you know someone who's already doing that thing, it's like, man, that, that is, that's gold, you know? Hmm. That's it. I think that's it for us, huh? Yeah.

Dave Jones: That's it. Yeah, we're done.

Chris Gammell: If you've got suggestions on what Chris and Dave should be doing in Australia in April of 2017, or if you want to hang out, in April of 2017. Yeah, man, it's a ways out. Yeah.

Dave Jones: I can remember thinking, oh, what will it be like in the year 2000 when the millennium comes around? Oh, man. It was like, seriously, that was a long way off, right? It was, yeah. You know, like 2000, like in the late 80s and early 90s, you know, it was like, oh, gee, you know, the millennium, you know?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, dude.

Dave Jones: Dude, 2017. Wow.

Chris Gammell: Time barrel's on, you know?

Dave Jones: Unbelievable. Unbelievable. Anyway.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, let's...

Dave Jones: Well, I know. The next amp hour, pretty sure, won't be done from my new office, but probably the, maybe the one after that might. Okay. Be. Cool. So, we'll see.

Chris Gammell: All right, man.

Dave Jones: All right.

Chris Gammell: Talk to you then.

Dave Jones: See you next time.

Chris Gammell: Bye. Bye.

Chris Gammell: Bye.

Speaker ?: Bye. Bye. Bye. Thank you.