#280 – New Year Education

Dave Jones: Hey guys, happy holidays and two quick announcements before we start. First off, we are going to be having another call-in show next week, except it will not be with Dave. It will be with Alicia and Chris because Dave's on vacation. So that will be held on January 6th, about 5 p.m. If you're interested, send an email to feedback at theamphour.com with your name, your location, what you want to talk about, and your Skype name because we're going to actually just Skype people in. The second thing is just that we had some blips with the audio, so it'll start sounding different about halfway through the show. Last thing is, I guess this is the third thing, but whatever. Thanks for listening. We really appreciate it. Dave's obviously not here this week, but we really appreciate it. We appreciate all our Patreon sponsors. We appreciate Paul Stevenson for donating the theme, and we love you guys. Here we go. Let's listen. This is the Amp Hour Podcast. Welcome to the Amp Hour Podcast. Welcome to the Amp Hour. I'm Chris Gammell of Contextual Electronics. And I'm Akiba from Freak Labs and Hacker Farm. Welcome back, Akiba, and almost happy new year.

Chris Gammell: Oh, thanks, thanks. Yeah, 2015 has been a crazy year. So I'm looking forward to 2016, but it's also, yeah, there's been ups and downs for 2015. So it's kind of nice to see it go, but it's been a lot of good news, too.

Dave Jones: All right, well, let's get the highlight reel. What's been the ups for you?

Chris Gammell: I think, well, okay, so I got a girlfriend, which is amazing for me. Yeah, yeah. It's like that's, yeah, especially for someone like me who just lives on a farm.

Dave Jones: No car. I was going to say, living out in a country, it's usually like, you know, less population density makes things tough, yeah? Uh-huh.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And then, but, you know, I really enjoyed, like, well, I, let's see, I was doing consulting for a DNA sequencing company, but then, like, I actually quit that so I could just focus on my own stuff. So I think that was a positive step, too.

Dave Jones: Nice.

Chris Gammell: Like, I'm like, I feel like I'm a bit, I'm a bit done with consulting and, like, that's, like, kind of the mid, the mid-step to just, like, just doing your own thing.

Dave Jones: Like being a product development company, basically, right? I mean, just that.

Chris Gammell: It's like a crutch. And then, so, like, you know, and I felt like I was kind of relying on it too much.

Dave Jones: Yeah. That's a, I mean, that's a common story. A lot of people, I think, I know, I just talked to Colin from Punch Through, the Lightbloom Bean Makers, and he was talking about that. And I think Mark and Joe did that for Salier when they were getting started as well, I think. Oh, yeah, yeah. But, yeah, I mean, it's a very common story, especially for product stuff. But, yeah, it's like, it's like that drip feed of, like, hey, we got some more capital

Chris Gammell: to keep you afloat. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's like, but the problem is, like, I feel like, for me, then, it just makes me lazy. And so, like, I need. I'll just up my rate, whatever. Yeah, I need to burn the boats behind me and just, like, charge forward. Ooh, burn the boats. Well. It's like the Viking mentality.

Dave Jones: Is that what they did? It was the Vikings that did that?

Chris Gammell: I think so. Like, there was that one story where, like, the famous Viking warrior, like, burned the boats and just, like, charged forward.

Dave Jones: I could be wrong.

Chris Gammell: I could be totally.

Dave Jones: No, I mean, that sounds familiar.

Chris Gammell: No, I mean, like, I might have my stories mixed up. But that's, like, kind of, at least in my mind, that's how it works.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Cool. And, yeah, so I've been seeing, I mean, you post a lot of stuff. I mean, you're posting about what you've been working on. And I think you showed, you had, like, a showcase of all the boards you've been working on. And there was a lot, man. Like, you've been working on a lot of different boards.

Chris Gammell: Oh, yeah, yeah. I, so, like, I have a lot of boards. I have maybe, I think, around 20 different boards, like, kind of in my queue of, like, they either need to be assembled and tested and, like, you know. And then, like, my problem is I never release anything to my shop because I'm always like, oh, I don't know. Is it good enough? Maybe, you know, maybe I just need to tweak it a little bit more. And that's, like, the worst thing you can do as a designer.

Dave Jones: Oh, just keep iterating on it and never letting it fly?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. I think it's, like, kind of perfectionist syndrome. And then it's, like, that's, so I realized that. And I'm, like, trying to correct myself on that because, yeah, when, like, releasing stuff always brings anxiety. Like, well, people like it, you know. Like, it's, like, kind of.

Dave Jones: It also brings this other thing, though, you know. Cash. Income. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: Very, very important.

Dave Jones: Yeah, uh-huh, uh-huh, uh-huh.

Chris Gammell: Very important. 2016, the year of cash. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Especially now that I have a girlfriend. It's, like, I can't, like, I can't be, like, oh, well, we're just going to eat bread tonight.

Dave Jones: Robin profitability. Yeah. Just all ramen all the time. Delicious.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. But it's pretty nice. I, like, yeah, there's a lot of kind of interesting designs that I'm working on. And some of them are a bit experimental. And then some of them are kind of, like, and some of them are just, like, kind of my bread and butter, like, sensor network stuff.

Dave Jones: Yeah, right. And I think you, I mean, so I'm trying to remember, so obviously you've been on the show before. And people should go check that out as well. But, yeah, I mean, so you've always talked a lot about the sensor network stuff I've seen that you were talking about. In the meantime, you pushed out the rice patty monitoring as well, right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. The rice farm monitoring. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah, we're actually, we'll be starting to work with Tokyo University on that, which is, like, kind of an interesting thing. So they're, like, kind of, there's, like, it's, like, it's quite a prestigious university. And then they contacted, well, one of us and said, oh, you know, like, let's talk. So I was like, oh, interesting.

Dave Jones: So what's a quick block diagram on that thing? Is it, like, long-range radio processing other stuff or what's on there?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. It's, like, so it's basically, like, single hop nodes. So we have, and then, so we have, like, kind of, like, amplified radio front ends. So basically it's long-range radios. So each radio could probably do, like, a couple kilometers. Wow. Or each node. Yeah. And then we have, like, one aggregator node, which just, like, takes all the data from the different nodes in the rice paddy and then sends it to a back-end server. Cool. And then, yeah.

Dave Jones: So that one has, like, a 3M card or 3G card or something on it or what?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. So it's using a 3G modem.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Cool. And what's the software stack on the back-end?

Chris Gammell: Let's see. We're using Python Flask and then either running it off of, like, and either running it off of our dev server or I think they moved it to, like, AWS or something. Oh, yeah. Okay. I totally forgot. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Cool. No, that's great, though. And that's, I mean, that's great because then, and I remember reading about that. It was, like, you know, an enabling technology for, you know, basically getting higher output, right? I mean, that's kind of one of the ideas here, right? Yeah. Or was it for aging population as well? Was that another goal?

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. It was for, like, a lot of the rice farmers out here are just, like, kind of getting older. Like, you know, for me, like, I'm 40. Oh, I just hit 42. Jesus. Sneaks up on you, huh? It's like, oh, man. I still feel like I haven't matured either. So I was like. Oh, that's okay. But, yeah, yeah. So, like, but, I mean, like, that's, like, super young. Most of the rice farmers here are, like, at 60 years old, they're considered, like, young spring chickens. So, like, they go, like, 70, 75.

Dave Jones: Wow. Yeah, it's pretty hard work, too. I mean, it's, like, easy work. Yeah, that's nutty. Yeah, yeah.

Chris Gammell: It's backbreaking. Yeah. But, yeah, it's, so, yeah, we'll be continuing that one. And then there's some other projects. Like, we're monitoring boar traps. And then, so, like.

Dave Jones: Boar, like, Neil's boar? Boar.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, we're trying to find the hydrogen atom. No, it's, no, we're, they're, like, so boar, like, wild pigs are, like, an invasive species in Japan. And so they're, like, actually in a lot of different parts of the world. And the thing is that, like, because, like, normally they just feed off of food in the forest. But then since there's, like, kind of construction encroaching on their area, then they, like, they're losing all their food sources. And so they're just ravaging the farmer's crops.

Dave Jones: Oh, right, right. And then. Yeah. So they're just trapping them. And you want to know when each one's trapped. So then. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Nice tasty dinner. Or you can reset the trap to catch other boar.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. So they, like, they cause a lot of problems for the farm, for the farmers. Because, like, one boar can just totally devastate a whole year's crop. Wow.

Dave Jones: That's crazy.

Chris Gammell: Like, so, yeah. The government actually pays, like, the local trappers to trap the boars. The boar. But, like, all the trappers are old, too. And so, like, you know, they can't. Like, the traps are, like, all in the mountains. And they can't, like, check them all the time. So then we're setting up some sensor networks just to, like. It's basically, like, occupancy sensors. See if, like, the trap is sprung.

Dave Jones: Nice. Yeah, I guess because if it's really remote, you probably can't get to each one by vehicle. Either it has to be on foot, right? Right. To the traps.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. So they're, like, they're put, they're, they're put, like, pretty high up in the mountains where, like. . . Or not the mountains, but the hills where the boar, like, kind of hang out.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. Hmm. That's, yeah, that's great. I mean, like, that's, and that's the kind of thing where, like, that is a, both of those things are such enabling technologies, you know, for. . . When I think of aging populations, that's probably not what I would have guessed would have been, like, the enabling thing. But that's really great that it is. It's so active still.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah, yeah. People out here, like, they're, like, you know, like, they're older, but they're, like, super strong and healthy. And, like, they're really active. It's like, wow. Yeah. So, but I think that they're, like, limited in what they, like. . . I mean, I just, there are certain limitations. Like, you can't, like, hike up a mountain every day. Just, like, check your traps, so. . .

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: But if you can, you're really healthy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. If you can, then, like, they'd be healthier than me. Like, I could barely. . . Right. I have to walk, like, a couple hundred meters. I'm like, Jesus, what the hell?

Dave Jones: Yeah, man. These things happen. Don't worry, 2016 could be the year of hiking the mountain foothills, you know? Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's great. So, you were saying, yeah, you call these different systems something, or what?

Chris Gammell: No, I just, well, they're, like, they're. . . Censor networks. I don't know. Internet of pigs? I'm not sure. Exactly. So. . . Pigs in traps! What was that? Pigs in space. Pigs in space. Pigs in space. Pigs in space. Pigs in space. Pigs in space. Pigs in space. Pigs in space.

Chris Gammell: Pigs in space. Oh, okay. That's. . . Gee, that's what. . . Yeah, I was. . . It's. . . Oh, man. I love Muppets. But, anyways. Sorry about that. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Gotta love the Muppets.

Chris Gammell: So, what about you? So, what about. . . . For 2015, what are you. . . . What's your highlight reel? Anything? Uh. . . . Ooh. Oh, you did the hackadate. Did the hackadate.

Dave Jones: The super con was great. Yeah. Yeah. That was good. Um. . . Yeah. A lot of work stuff.

Chris Gammell: Mm-hmm.

Dave Jones: Um. . .

Chris Gammell: About contextual? Contextual electronics.

Dave Jones: Yeah, man. That's been going for a year. Almost a year now. A year in. . . No, like. . . About. . . Yeah, a little bit less than a year. It would start in the 20th again. So. . .

Chris Gammell: Is that. . . It's that young? I thought. . . I thought it's been going on for a lot longer. Sorry.

Dave Jones: No, the second. . . The second session. So, like, the first time through. . . Oh, okay. Okay. It went, like. . . So, January 2014. It went for, like, three months. And then there was a one-month break. And then another three months. Uh-huh. And now. . . Then it started back up in January this year. And then it's been continuous since. Oh, nice. And so. . . . Between me and then two of the embedded instructors. We have, like. . . We made probably 300-plus videos this year. Wow. Which is not. . . Not, like, quantity. Quantity is not always a great measure. I talked to Dave about this, too. It's not. . . Uh-huh. It's not necessarily a great measure. But the thing I'm really proud of is just, like, the consistency. Just because. . . Yeah. My setup is very easy to kind of just turn it on. And start talking about the project I've been working on. So, just, you know, like. . . Getting through boards. I mean, like. . . You. . . Obviously, you know. . . You have so many boards that you've been working on. Just getting stuff in the pipeline. Yeah, yeah. It's so important to kind of keep that pipeline full. Because. . . Yeah. You don't want to just be sitting there. You need to. . . You know, you start on one thing. You got to start. . . You put the tenant out to fab. You got to start on the next thing. It's just. . . This is where I always kind of just. . . I start getting kind of. . . Upset. Where it's like. . . When people talk about, like, the. . . You know, I like a lot of the. . . The enabling. . . Like, the. . . Like, the milling machines. And the. . . These new circuit printers and stuff. They're cool. But, like. . . . Eh. It's not practical. I mean, like. . . It's just like. . . There's already. . . I mean, yes. . . It'd be nice to have an instant turnaround. But, in reality. . . I've got a workflow. Where it's just. . . I've got so many things to be doing. And I'm sure it's the same for you, right? It's like. . . If you're not assembling something. . . You're testing something. If you're not testing something. . . You're working on an export. You're sourcing parts. You're doing all these different things. It's just a lot of parallel processes.

Chris Gammell: Yeah, yeah. It's like. . . I think. . . At the current price point. . . It really almost. . . Like. . . Oh, basically. . . It doesn't make sense to. . . To purchase. . . Like, a lot of the. . . At least the PCB mills. That I'm seeing. Because, like. . . It's just so cheap to turn PCBs. And, like. . . There's, like. . . So much. . . It's so much nicer when you have, like. . . A solder mask. And, like. . . Plated. . . Yeah. Yeah, man.

Dave Jones: So. . . I just. . . Yeah, and it's. . . . I wore four layers. Like. . . . Man, four layers is my. . . Is the. . . The devil that calls my name every time. Like. . . Ooh. . . You could just add two more layers. That would make things so simple. Four layers. Just drop a V out of the power grain. Plain. Yeah, yeah. You know?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Oh, four-layer boards. I like. . . Like. . . If I really need to shrink a board. Then, yeah. Four layers. It's like. . . I like to go four layers. But it's, like. . . Kind of a luxury for me.

Dave Jones: Of course. No, no. I mean. . . . Yeah, it is. It's. . . . But. . . . It's. . . You know. . . It's just sometimes. . . It's like. . . Yeah, of course. It's just easy. You know? I don't know. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. No, four layers is nice. So. . . Yeah, it ups the cost a little bit. But. . . I. . I'm okay with that sometimes. I'm not doing anything fast. I mean. . . So, what is the turnaround time on your stuff? I mean. . . What kind of times are you trying to get hit?

Chris Gammell: Um. . . . Like. . . For my PCBs. It. . . It depends. Like. . . . Sometimes I need. . . . I need quick turns on, like. . . Well. . . So, like. . . Since I do a lot of RF stuff. Then. . . I think. . . If you do an RF. Or maybe, like. . . Analog. And you have to tweak things a lot. Then. . . I think that, like. . . Maybe. . . PCB mills are useful. Because, like. . . I'm always, like. . . Playing around with different radios. And, like. . . The different radios are all, like. . . Quirky. And so, like. . . You know. . . Sometimes you need, like. . . . A particular. . . . Like. . . . They're very particular about the layout. Yeah. So, like. . . You know. . . So, if I have to wait, like. . . Two weeks every time I spin a board. Then that's a problem. But, um. . . But, generally. . . Yeah. I mean. . . It's just so cheap. I mean. . . Like. . If I go. . . Like. . . For prototyping. I use Seed and Dirty PCBs. That's, like. . . E-Instinct. And then. . . Yeah. And so. . . I mean. . . It's, like. . . $10. $20. I mean. . . Even, like. . . $50. It's painful. Right. It's, like. . . How are they doing. . . What are they putting in these things? Yeah. It's. . . So, I mean. . . Like. . . I think. . . The. . . It's really interesting. Because it changed a lot of things. Because the. . . The entry cost. . . Of. . . Doing, like. . . You know. . . Very sophisticated. . . Technical stuff. Has. . . Has fell through the floor. And so. . . You know. . . It's. . . It's awesome. Because it, like. . . . It enables a lot of people. To, like. . . . Just. . . . You know. . . Do. . . A lot more things. But I. . . But I don't know. I guess. . . There. . . There's, like. . . There's, like. . . There's, like. . . A parallel problem. Which is that. . . It only enables people. That know how to take advantage of it. And so, like. . . Then. . . Then the issue. . . Which I guess you run into. With contextual electronics. Is then. . . Of education. Like. . . Who knows how to control. All these things. Like. . . All these possibilities.

Dave Jones: Right. Yeah. It's like. . . . You almost kind of have to be. . . . Jack of all trades. Or Jill of all trades. You know. . . Like. . . Just. . . You have to. . . You have to dabble in everything. In order to really take advantage. Right. You have to. . . Or. . .

Chris Gammell: I. . . I think you have to know, like. . . That the possibilities exist. And then, like. . . And then. . . I mean. . . Yeah. You. . . Oh. . . It's like the. . .

Dave Jones: The knowing what to Google for problem. Like that one.

Chris Gammell: Kind of. But. . . I mean. . . You have to. . . Like. . . It's. . . It's one of those things where. . . . . You know. . . Like a lot of kids. . . Like. . . Like. . . Like. . . Like. . . Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Are brought up to be. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . They feel like anything is possible. And they're experimental. And they'll try things. And that's how you really learn something. But like. . . You know. . . Like. . . My upbringing is like. . . You know. . . Don't do that. Don't rock the boat. You know. Just like. . . . Get good grades. And everything will be fine. Right. It's like. . . . It's like. . . . Typical Chinese parents. Yeah. And then I was. . . And so. . .

Dave Jones: I think that's just an academic mindset as well. You know. It's like. . . The grades. . . The goal is to get the grades. And get the paper. And get out. Right. And this is kind of. . . This is what you and I talked about. . . Talking about on the show this week anyways. Was kind of the. . . The traditional educational model. And how do you. . . How do you break outside of that? Right. I mean. . . . That is. . . Yeah. That is continually the problem. That we're running into.

Chris Gammell: But. . . . Yeah. I mean. . . . . I think. . . Like. . . So. . . Out here. . . Like. . . So. . . Like. . . I live at a place called Hacker Farm. And then. . . So. . . We have like a bunch of technical people here too. But then there's like. . . A lot of. . . Like. . . Technical people with families. And so. . . Like. . . We. . And then. . . You know. . . Or just like families in general out here too. And then. . . We. . . We think a lot about like. . . Kind of. . . The education system. And. . . . And how. . . Like. . . . What's good and what's bad. Like. . . My. . . My thinking is that. . . Like. . . The education system isn't completely bad. But I think. . . Like. . . In Japan. . . Then. . . There's a lot of education reform that needs to be done. I'm pretty sure it's like everywhere.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well. . . I. . . Okay. So this is my understanding of the Japanese education system. Is it. . . It's very. . . Rigid and test-based. Is that. . . Is that correct or no?

Chris Gammell: I think that's a. . .

Dave Jones: That's a good summary.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I just remember. . . .

Dave Jones: I remember. . . . Talking to some people. And just like the stresses around. And a lot of like entrance exams. Stuff like that. And it's not just Japan. Obviously. There's a lot of countries that are like that. Where. . . The focus on entrance exams. Is just a huge stressor. But what does it really show? I mean like. . . It's like. . . Yes. It's a way to delineate one person for the next. But. . . Yeah. I don't know.

Chris Gammell: I feel like. . . So. . . Well. . . Basically. . . How it works in Japan. Is you're also like. . . . You're also given a class ranking. Based on how well you do on tests. And I think that's like a horrible thing. Yeah. To do. Because like people. . . Or children. . . Then start measuring their value. In terms of their class ranking. Which. . . Which is not. . . Which I feel like is very. . . Non-ideal. And a lot of. . . A lot of people that are out here. . . Like. . . In Kamogawa. Then. . . It's like. . . The cost of living is really low. And so like. . . We. . . You know. . . Along with farmers. There's also a lot of artists. And hippies and stuff. And a lot of people that just kind of. . . Like. . . Don't fall into the traditional mold in Tokyo. Then they end up just like. . . Coming out here. And like. . . And like. . . When I see them. . . And talk to them. . . Like. . . A lot of them are just like. . . Brilliant. Or like. . . Super creative artists. And just. . . Really. . . I mean. . . You know. . . Like. . . They should be. . . You know. . . They should be celebrated. As well. But like. . . You know. . . When they were talking about. How they were going through school. And they. . . Like. . . They. . . They had a lot of problems. They had to drop out. Et cetera. Et cetera. And so. . . It's like. . . And I think like. . . The whole test-based system. Is that. . . If you don't fall into line. With like. . . How. . . Like. . . The school system judges you. And then you're basically cast aside. And it affects your life. And it's like. . . . I feel like that's wrong.

Dave Jones: So. . . I agree. I mean. . . I think we're both. . . Obviously. . . We should warn people. Me and Akiba are on the exact same page on this. Not the exact same. But you know. . . We're very. . . We're going to be coming at this from a very similar angle. But yeah. I mean. . . Like. . I totally agree. And. . . Of course. Let's just. . . Let's just pat each other on the back while we're at it.

Speaker ?: Yes.

Dave Jones: Pat pat. Great points. Good sir.

Chris Gammell: Right-o. I'm pretty. . . I'm pretty. . . . Well. . . . I'm pretty liberal in my ideas about education. But yeah. So. . . Sorry. I interrupted you.

Dave Jones: I think. . . I mean. . . Honestly. . . I think. . . I think the. . . Okay. So. . . I've been thinking about how to talk about these things recently. And. . . Mm-hmm. Okay. So like a first principle here would be. . . Creativity is important. Right? Mm-hmm. I mean. . . I think. . . It's. . . I agree with that. It may. . . It may be some people don't. . . Don't agree with that. But. . . . You know. . . . That's. . . . That's where I start from. It's like creativity is important. Okay. Great. How do you. . .

Chris Gammell: I think it's one of the. . . Well. . . I think it's one of the most important skills to have. You know. . . Like. . . I think like. . . You know. . . Arts. . . A liberal arts. Like. . . Liberal arts is like kind of a foundation skill that you need. Yeah. But anyways.

Dave Jones: So you. . . You put. . . You put. . . Creativity kind of in that liberal arts bin or what?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Well. . . . I'd say like programming and electronics and all that would be. . . . I would consider it more like kind of founded in liberal arts rather than. . . You know. . . Rather than logic. I mean part of it is logic. But a lot of it is like kind of. . . You know. . . Like creativity based. So. . .

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. I guess I. . . I try not to think about it like that where it's like. . . You know. . . One thing or another. Like liberal arts or technical or anything like that. I think about it. . . Uh-huh. Honestly. I think about it like music. Right? Like. . . . Uh-huh. Like jazz specifically. I always think about jazz because I love jazz. But then I think. . . . . I think I mentioned on the show before. But like basically. . . You don't start by just playing random notes. You start by emulating. You start by. . . You know. . . You find someone that you want to play like. Or you find a song you want to play. And you start playing it. And you have this form. And then you start to recognize patterns. And then eventually you start. . . Then not only. . . You know. . . Combining patterns. And reassembling them. But then you also break out of the patterns. In order to create something new. You know. . . . That is like the basis of. . . . I think that kind of creation pattern. . . . Is common amongst everything. You know. . . Even. . . Like even just. . . Like mathematical proofs. Right. Eventually. . . You know. . . You start with proving. . . You prove the same proof that everybody else has. The loci and all that other crap. And then eventually. . . You know. . . You get far enough along. And you're at the frontier. And then you have to start playing with. . . You know. . . All these different new ideas. Uh-huh. But. . . I. . . Yeah. I totally agree. Yeah. The testing at the beginning though. . . . Is one of the problems. It's like. . . . . Okay. You can. . . You can prove. . . . You can test whether or not someone has. . . Followed the thing exactly. But then people don't move on from that. They don't say. . . Oh, well. . . You know. . . It's. . . It's not. . . It's not like. . . Am I. . . Understanding and trying different things. It's. . . No, no. Are you just following it exactly? You know. . . That's because of. . . Because of how testing works in the first place. So if I say. . . You need to go play. . . Baba Black Sheep on the piano. That's great. But then. . . If. . . If you become a PhD in Baba Black Sheep. . . That doesn't really do anyone any good. Right? You need to actually encourage the breaking out of that eventually. And how do you measure that? And one of the problems is you can't. . . You can't measure the quality of breaking outside of that. That. . . In my opinion.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean. . . A lot of it. . . I think. . . Also has to do with. . . Like. . . Like. . . Well. . . Okay. . . I don't want to get too philosophical. But I think a lot of it has to do with. . . Like. . . Like. . . Allowing. . . Like. . . External people to judge. . . Like. . . A skill or value. Versus. . . Internal. Like. . . Actually. . . So. .

Dave Jones: Okay. Can you give an example?

Chris Gammell: When I was a dancer. Like. . . So. . When I was dancing. Yeah. It's like. . . To start off dancing. And then. . . Like. . . Especially street dancing. You learn a lot of. . . . Like. . . . Kind of the basic moves. So. . . . Like. . . Just like you said. You start off like. . . It's all like technique. And you spend all your time working on technique. And like. . . Getting all the different. . . Like. . . Kind of. . .

Chris Gammell: Kind of muscle. . . Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . . The muscle control. And all that. And then you get to a certain point. Where. . . When you understand the basics. Then you know which areas you can push. And like. . . Also. . . Like. . . Once you understand. And you. . . And you. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . . Get really good with the rules. Then you know. When it's okay to break the rules. And I think that's really important. Because that's when you start. . . Kind of going to the next level.

Dave Jones: Right. And. . . Now. . . Well. . . One of the things with the dancing thing though. Like. . . Hmm. I think. . . Even when there's. . . When you're learning the beginnings of that stuff. People are still encouraged to try other things. Right. Like. . . To try. . . I mean. . . To try and break out earlier. Or no. I mean. . . I feel like. . . I feel like. . . I feel like we're also disproving the same point. That we're trying to prove. You know what I mean? Like. . . Well. . . People should just follow the rules at the beginning.

Chris Gammell: Well. . . Actually. . . It's. . . So. . . I would say. . . Yes or no. I do. . . I do think that rules are important. Like. . . You need. . . Like. . . You need. . . A certain. . . A certain amount of. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . Discipline. And like. . . Kind of. . . Like. . . You need like. . . A framework. Like. . . So. . When people start. . . And then like. . . . In fact. . .

Speaker ?: Like. . . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . .

Chris Gammell: For dancing. Then like. . . When people start out. Then I would kind of tell them. Oh. . . You know. . . This is how it's done. This is how it's done. This is how it's done. And then like. . . Later on. . . When they practice by themselves. And they can experiment. Like. . . Kind of. . . With other ways too.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But I think. . . I think. . . The initial framework is important. But then it's also important to like. . . Encourage them to break out of it. Like. . . I think. . . There's like. . . . Like. . . Like. . . . In Japan. . . Then one thing that I noticed. Is that like. . . A lot of the dancers. All dance kind of similar. And because they just. . . They're all studio taught. And like. . . So there's like. . . So they're taught like. . . There's only one way to do this. Whereas I think. . . Like. . . I was always kind of. . . Like. . . I was big into like. . . You know. Like. . . I like technique. But I also like freestyling a lot. And then freestyling is where you kind of let yourself go. And when you see that. . . Then. . . Then. . . Like. . . You can actually see. Everybody's like so individual when they dance. Like. . . The way. . . Like. . . The movements are all like. . . Kind of really just. . . Like. . . Almost like signatures.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. Yeah. That's a good point. Yeah. Well. . . I think the other thing with dance too. Is that like. . . You. . . You're not really. . . I guess one of the other things. . . That we're kind of talking about here. Is practical application versus. . . Theoretical application. Right. Because obviously. . . We're also talking about electronics. Right. The. . . Yeah. One of the things that I struggle with. Is people. . . . You know. Whoa. That would be like. . . It's like. . . I want to learn how to dance. And it'd be like. . . All right. Well. . . Let's talk about. . . Let's talk about the history of foot technique.

Speaker ?: It's like. . .

Dave Jones: Well. . . No. But like. . . Even a dancer who's starting out. And following. . . That's still the practical application. Of following in the footsteps of someone else. Okay. Let's. . . Let's. . . Let's try this move. And let's see if you can. . . You know. . . Control your body to. . . To replicate it. That's a practical application of that thing. Versus sitting down and studying it. You know what I mean? Like that's. . . I feel like. . . Actually though.

Chris Gammell: That like. . . Say like. . . Like jazz and dance are. . . I mean. . . They're not academic. I mean. . . They're still basically like. . . Kind of apprentice. Like. . . Almost like apprenticeships. Which I think is kind of. . . How. . . I feel like that's like. . . A better way to learn things. Than. . . Than like. . . You know. . . Current. . . Like. . . Currently in academia. Where like. . . . Like you're taught. . . . Like a lot of theory. Yeah. Like. . . Like in dance. . . Like you learn something. You learn like say. . . A dance routine. Or a dance piece. And then you perform it. At the end of like. . . Say the lesson. Or the class.

Dave Jones: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well and like. . . In jazz too right. Like you might. . . You might. . . Someone says. . . Says like. . . Oh well. They play this chord. Then play this chord. And play this chord. And it sounds good. And let's. . . Let's play around. And see. . . You know. Can you follow this pattern? And then later. You go and you learn the music theory. And it's like. . . Oh well. Here's why it sounds good. And here's the actual music theory behind it. And then. . . You're more compelled to do it. Same thing with electronics. It's like. . . Let's light up an LED to start with. And then. . . Yeah. Let's go back and talk about. . . The gate capacitance on a FET. You know what I mean?

Chris Gammell: Why does that exist? You know. Let's light up an LED. And then. . . Light up another one.

Dave Jones: Right. Well. . . And that's. . . I mean. . . That's another good point. Is that it could. . . It very quickly. . . Could become. . . You know. . . Banal. To keep doing the same beginner stuff. Over and over again. Right. It's all. . . You need to keep building. And there is totally. . . A place for the theory. Because without the theory. Eventually you get. . . You just get confused. Because you have these. . . Mental models. And you don't have anything to fall back on. Yeah. This. . . . Of physics. So yeah. It's. . . It is. . . It's got to be a combo. But it's kind of when. . . It feels like when. . . And how people. . . Insert the theory. Versus the practical. Feels a little backwards. To me these days.

Chris Gammell: But yeah. I think like. . . Actually. . . Because. . . That's a good point. I mean like. . . If I were to teach. . . Someone electronics. I'd probably. . . Yeah. I'd probably start out. Like. . . You know. First by doing. . . Like. . . Really. Like. The basics. Like. . . . LEDs. And you know. Like. . . Et cetera. Et cetera. And then. . . Because you really don't need to understand. Like. . . Kind of. . . Like. . . Actually. Like. . . Transistors. Or even. . . Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . . Transistors. You don't really need to understand. About transistors. Until you want to start driving. Bigger LEDs. Yeah. Or like. . . Bigger things. Right. Right. And then. . . So then. . . Like. . . You'll eventually hit that roadblock. Where. . . . Hey. I want to drive this 10 watt LED. Well. . . . . Like. . .

Dave Jones: A lot of people are saying context. But. . . Yeah. And then. . .

Dave Jones: Even. . . Kind of. . . Akiba is a plant. For contextual electronics.

Chris Gammell: So. . . I'm getting. . . I'm getting the referral fee. Right? That's. . . Oh yeah. I forgot about that. Yeah. But. . . But yeah. I mean. . . Like. . . And then. . . Like. . . The gate capacitance. On. . . Like. . . The gate capacitance. On the transistor. Like. . . You don't even. . . Need to really know. About that. Until you start writing the problems. Where like. . . . . You know. . . So like. . . So then. . . Like. . . Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . .

Speaker ?: Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . .

Chris Gammell: I mean. . . It's really. . . It depends on the need. So. . .

Dave Jones: Yeah. And I. . . I don't know how. . . You got started. But. . . I know. . . When I got started. I was like. . . Well. . . I want to learn everything about this topic. And I would go open a textbook. And then I'd. . . . . You know. . .

Chris Gammell: I've tracked it out now. And like. . . I think. . . Like. . . I don't know. They're. . . Like. . . In. . . Kind of. . . You can make a very loose argument. That it's okay to know that stuff. But you don't need to know about process technology. To like. . . To use a chip. Or you know. Like. . . You just kind of. . . Like. . . Generally. Like. . . You know. Like. . . For like. . . For. . . So. . . I don't know. I just. . . I just feel like. . .

Dave Jones: Well. . . . How about this. When do you feel like you need to understand process technology in your work? I mean. . . When are you like. . . I should really go figure out what process this chip is being run on. Is there ever time for that or no?

Chris Gammell: Hmm. . . Let me see. Like. . . Let's. . . Let's see. All right. If I was. . . If I was. . . First of all. . . If I wanted to check if there's like 5 volt tolerance on a chip. Yeah.

Dave Jones: That's. . . No. . . That's what I was thinking too. Yeah. Yeah. Is this old process? Or is this new process? Or are there diodes on the front end that are faking the 5 volt tolerance? Or what? Yeah. Right. And then like. . . Just like. . .

Chris Gammell: You know. . . Op amps. Like. . . You know. . . If it's like. . . Like a JFET op amp. Or you know. . . Yeah. Like CMOS op amp. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's like. . . So. . . When you get into like. . . Yeah. Bipolar processes or something like that. But then like. . . I don't really. . . There's not a lot of times where I'm like. . . . Oh. . . This is a 90 nanometer process. You know. I'm looking for like a 45 or like a 130. It's like. . . Yeah. That kind of thing doesn't really happen too much. Like. . . Yeah. It's mostly like. . . You know. . . I'm mostly like. . . Oh. . . How much does that chip cost? God damn. That must be new. I can get the same thing for a dollar.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Right. Right. Do I need to pay that much for that chip? I don't. . . I don't know. I don't know.

Chris Gammell: And then. . . Yeah. Yeah. And then I feel like. . . I feel like a lot of people in open hardware. Like. . . We're just like. . . Or. . Like. . At least. . . People today are just totally spoiled by like. . . All the cheap Chinese chips that are coming out. Like. . . Like the. . .

Dave Jones: ESP-8266 type.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. It's like. . . . It's like a $3 Wi-Fi module. And it's like. . . . And then so now people are like. . . It's crazy. Oh, Wi-Fi. It's only. . . It's only $3 to get an embedded module. And it's like. . . Totally like. . . Oh, you guys are so spoiled. Yeah. Talking about. . . Friday. Now the kid. We had to. . . We had to modify our Linksys routers just to. . . That's right. You know. . .

Dave Jones: You had a piece of blue plastic strapped to every single thing that you wanted to do.

Chris Gammell: Pretty much. Yeah. Yeah. Modify the firmware. And then like. . . . Kind of like. . . . Duct tape the router to like some pole. And then. . . . Yep.

Dave Jones: Oh, man. That's funny. So. . . Okay. So you mentioned that there's people with families at the farm. I mean. . . Are you. . . Are you seeing them kind of bring their families into the fold? I mean. . . And how are they. . . How are they doing that?

Chris Gammell: I think. . . Yeah. So. . . Like. . So. . One of the guys. . . I was trying to get him to come on. . . Like. . . To talk today too. But he's. . . He's like. . . He's at the cafe cleaning up. But. . . He's. . . He's on kitchen duty. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. He's like. . . . He's like a. . . He's like a programmer. He actually specializes in like. . . Kind of. . . Like virtual reality. Augmented reality. But. . . Oh, wow. Wow. But he. . . So he. . . He has a child that's like. . . About two years old. And. . . And also. . . Recently. . . His wife's. . . His wife's sister's daughter. So his wife's niece. Was having. . . Like some issues in Tokyo. And then. . . So she came out to live with them also. And so. . . And she's. . . 12 years old now. So like. . . He suddenly. . . He suddenly became like a father of like a full family. Like. . . Yeah. Like. . . You know. . . Complete with a teenager and an infant. And so like. . . And. . . It. . . And like. . . We all like kind of hang out. . . Like. . . And like. . . And like. . . And like everybody loves her. And so like. . . But it's interesting that like. . . So she's kind of. . . Into the whole. . . Japanese school system. And then it spurs a lot of discussion about. . . Oh. Like. . . You know. Like. . . You know. Like. . . Um. . . Is the school system adequate? Is it like. . . She's really creative. Like. . . Will it be able to like. . . You know. . . Will it be able to address the fact that she likes art a lot. That. . . You know. Because like. . . Ah.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Right.

Chris Gammell: They've gotten rid of a lot of the humanities classes in Japan. And they're like. . . You know. . . And. . . You know. . . This like kind of. . . They're basically trying to turn Japan into like a. . . A nation of like. . . STEM. . STEM education. Which is like. . . Mm-hmm. Which I feel is like sad. So.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I mean. . . Yeah. That. . . You know. . . For a long time I was. . . I was very much for that. You know. Just saying. . . . I mean. . . . Because obviously I want people to have kind of a technical background. But it's like. . . No. . . I really want both. I don't know. Like. . . Whatever dimension you come to. Like. . . As long as people figure out that they should be doing electronics. Listening to the amp hour eventually. I don't. . . I don't really care.

Speaker ?: That's. . .

Chris Gammell: I just want more listeners 20 years from now. That's what I want.

Dave Jones: Right. That's. . .

Dave Jones: That's only half not true. Uh. . . I mean. . . But. . . I mean. . . Honestly. Like. . . . However. . . . Like. . . I never think that people should be. . . You know. . . I always. . . I always dislike when. . . When people are criticized for like. . . Oh. . . Well. . . You don't have the background. It's like. . . Who. . . Who cares? If you're interested. . . You know. . . That is so much more important. You know. . . I've seen people that are interested. That can do a lot more than someone with a background. Myself included. I have a background. . . You know. . . I have a college background in electronics. And there are people that are. . . . You know. . . Way outside what I can do. I mean. . . . . Like just. . . Because there's interest. And there's passion with it. And they're. . . They're just. . . They're sticking with it. You know. . . That kind of. . . That kind of stuff. You can't. . . You can't fake it. You know. . .

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like. . . You know. . . It's interesting. Because. . . Technology. . . Like being like. . . A school trained. . . Technology person. Is. . . I mean. . . It's okay. But like. . . . I think. . . Like. . . At this point. . . Technology is basically a trade skill. Like. . . . You know. . . There's trade schools. That are just like. . . Cranking out JavaScript programmers. Like left and right. Yeah. Yeah. And then. . . I think electronics. . . Has gotten to the point. Where. . . You know. . . As long as you know. . . Like. . . It's like similar to Python. As long as you know. . . Which libraries to use. And like. . . You have a basic understanding of. . . Like. . . Like. . . C syntax. Then. . . You can pretty much. . . Do like. . . You know. . . Embedded. . . Embedded design and programming. So. . .

Dave Jones: Yeah. I mean. . . It's a lot of. . . Yeah. Well. . . It's a lot of integration pieces. For sure. And. . . And the people that can. . . You know. . . It's not like. . . It's not regurgitation. But it's really. . . You know. . . It's surveying the landscape. Okay. What's out there? What can I use? How do I need to. . . You know. . . Go and implement those things? Mm-hmm. And then. . . How can I. . . Quickly. . . Do that. . . And get it all working together? That's. . . I mean. . . Some people would say that's always been. . . That's always been part of it. But I think that. . . You know. . . It's so much more the. . . It's the. . . Piecing it together. And understanding how the whole system works. Is such an important piece. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But. . . I feel like. . . A lot of. . . A lot of times. In like. . . Like. . . So. . . You know. . . When I was in school. . . Like. . . . They never really taught the big picture. Like. . . You always just. . . Like. . . Learn. . . Like. . . Very small fractional pieces of stuff. Like. . . You know. . . You know. . . Like. . . When I was taking. . . Control systems and stuff. And then. . . Like. . . They just. . . You know. . . This is. . . This is a control loop. This is PID. And then. . . You know. . . This is how you. . .

Dave Jones: Here's your Z plane.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yeah. They. . . They show you. . . They show you the. . . . They show you the overshoot. They show you. . . Like. . . What the undershoot looks like. But they never tell you. . . Like. . . Why you'd want to do that. And so. . . Like. . . You know. . . Like. . . Why. . Like. . . Like. . If you have overshoot. That you could. . . Potentially destroy your motor. Or if you have undershoot. That. . . Like. . . Your seg. . . Or your segway will fall over. You know. . . Injuring the person that's riding it. Yeah. Something like that. And so like. . . . Take a long time to start off. Like. . . . It's never kind of. . . . It was never put in those terms for me. So I never really. . . Like. . . So I feel like my academic education. Electronics education. Was. . . Fairly limited. And I had to like. . . Kind of discover. . . Like. . . A lot of the stuff on my own. Right.

Dave Jones: When I. . . I. . You know. . . I've talked. . . So. . I've mentioned on the show before. But I was at the. . . I was asked to go to the. . . I was invited to go to the. . . And I was very. . . Very nice that they did. But they invited me to the. . . . The EE. Department Heads Association. Uh-huh. And I stood up and asked. I was like. . . You know. . . What is the role of practical education? And I. . . You know. . . I was. . . And basically. . . All of these. . . And this was asking a bunch of like. . . Heads of companies. And they're like. . . Yeah. We don't really care. And I'm just like. . . What the hell? I don't remember the exact situation. Now. . . Other than I was just. . . Fuming with anger in the back of the room. You know. . . But basically. . . It was. . . These heads of company. . . Like these CTOs. That were saying. . . . No, no, no. We want test scores. We don't want practical. And it's like. . . Oh, geez. You know. . . Even companies that are doing. . . Like tons of simulation. And stuff like that. If you're just good at simulating. . . You need to still have. . . Some kind of practical application. Or you're. . . You don't understand. . . What's actually going on. It's just. . . You're just twiddling knobs. On a computer. You know. . . Yeah. I don't know. That. . . Yeah. That. . . That makes me angry too. Actually. Yeah. It was. . . . It was bad, man. I was. . . . I was ready to storm the stage. But I was invited to go there. So I shouldn't have done that. So. . . Oh.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean. . . Like. . . I think there's. . . There. . . There's. . . Like. . . The whole. . . Thing about. . . I think there's. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . The old school. . . Technology. Industry. Uh-huh. That. . . That exists. And then. . . The. . . That's more. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . . You know. . . Like. . . Like. . . They're just like. . . Oh. We'll just take them out of college. And like. . . Train them up. Or. . . You know. . . Or just. . . Stuff like that. Like. . . The old school. . . Technology companies. That like. . . Care about like. . . You know. . . Oh. What kind of GPA they got. Et cetera. Et cetera. And I think. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . I feel like. . .

Dave Jones: The problem though. Is that no one trains anymore. Right? I mean. . . . That's. . . Yeah. That used to be true. Sure. Yeah. Back in the day. Yeah. Great. But. . . . . Who trains anymore. I don't. . .

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. I. . . Well. . . I feel like it's more important. Like. . . To really assess like. . . Like. . . What is. . . What is someone capable of. And also like. . . How willing are they to learn. Because I think. . . There's almost nobody that like. . . Knows everything. So like. . . You know. It's like. . . Really. Kind of. . . Like. . How fast. How fast. And how willing you are. To like. . . Try new things. And like. . . Learn about them.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. And that comes down to company culture as well. You have. . . A lot of elements there. Of course. But. . . Yeah. It's. . . Yeah. I don't. . . So. . . How do we fix it man?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I. . . Like. . . I think. . . So. . . For. . . For being out here. Then. . . Like. . Like. . . Like. . . We're. . . We're currently working with like. . . Like a mother's group. And. . . We're tossing around the idea. Of putting together. . . Like. . . Something similar to Hacker Moms. So. . . That was. . . Hacker Moms. Was like kind of a hackerspace that. . . Like. . . I. . . I've never heard of that. Oh really? It's like a hackerspace in Oakland. Like. . . My sister started it. And actually. . . Huh. Like. . . She got the idea. Because I was telling her about Tokyo Hackerspace. While we were eating. At like a. . . Like a. . . A macaroni and cheese. At a. . . At a. . . At an Oakland restaurant. And then. . . She was like. . . And she was a mom. And. . . Like. . . She was like jealous. Because we were doing a lot of like. Interesting projects. At the hackerspace. And she said. Kind of got together a group of four moms. And then like. . . They started like. . . Putting the plans together. That's awesome. To do hacker moms. Yeah.

Dave Jones: That's really awesome.

Chris Gammell: But I think. . . Well. . . The concept behind hacker moms. Was that like. . . You know. . . Like. . . Like. . Happy creative moms. Lead to happy creative children. And so like. . . The idea was. That. . . Like. . . You should. . . Like. . . The focus should be put on the moms. You know. And like. . . And having the moms. Feel like they're like. . . . Kind of. . . . Creatively. You know. Or just like. . . Fulfilled. In like. . . What they're able to do. Rather than their whole focus. Like. . . Be on the children.

Dave Jones: Ah. . .

Chris Gammell: Right. So. . . It should be more. . . Yeah. More important. That the moms are doing. . . Like. . Interesting stuff. And the kids can watch the moms. Do interesting stuff. And then they will emulate their. . . Their. . . Or their parents. But yeah. In that case. . .

Dave Jones: That's like. . . Mini apprenticeship. Right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Parent. Child. Master. Apprentice. Type of thing.

Chris Gammell: So. . . . Yeah. We were talking. . . We're talking to some other groups. About trying to set something up. . . Similarly over here. And like. . . Maybe using our cafe. For like. . . A meeting. Once a week. And so we'd have like. . . Sort of our cafe. Then we have like. . . A dedicated room. Where we can turn into like. . . A kids playroom. And then just have like. . . Like a sitter. Monitoring the kids. While. . . You know. . . For a couple hours. While like. . . The moms. Like can. . . Do some stuff. But then also like. . . . So. . . That's one thing. Is to start. . . . Like. . . Like. . . Working directly with the moms. And the other thing. Is also like. . . I think for the older kids. And then start adding. . . Maybe. . . After school education. After school events. Because like. . . I think. . . Rather. . . There's like. . . Been discussions. About homeschooling. And like. . . I'm not really. . . Like. . . That's a little bit. . . Too much for me. Like. . . I think. . . I think the education system. . . Like. . . Can provide like. . . At least. . . A decent framework. And then. . . And then like. . . . Like. . . And then after school. Then you can kind of like. . . De-educate them. On like. . . The bad things. So. . . Right.

Dave Jones: Well. . . Yeah. There's a lot of benefits. Just to the social aspects. Of a lot of that stuff. I mean. . . Obviously. There's. . . There's downsides. To. . . You know. . .

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: Being in middle school. As well. But. . . Oh geez. Tell me that. I mean. There's a lot of positive things. From. . . From the social interactions. As well. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean. . . . . I think. . . . . I don't. . . I don't have like. . . Any. . . Like. . . I think. . . The school system. . . Like. . . It. . . I feel like it's important. To work within the school system. Rather than against it. And so. . . Like. . . I feel like homeschooling. Yeah. Is a bit too. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . Like. . . Like. . . Homesteading.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well. . . There's that. . . That. . . Alt school. Did you see that? It's like a. . . . School in Silicon Valley. That's like a startup. And. . . . And it's just. . . . Like. . . Okay. Yeah. It's different. I don't know. I just. . . There is a lot. I. . . What I will say is that. . . So first off. . . I have no kids. Uh-huh. So I don't understand a lot of this stuff. So don't write in. Then tell me that I don't know anything. Because like. . . You might be right. But. . . I'm going off my experience. And. . . Yeah. And I think that there's just. . . . There's a lot of talented teachers out there. And that want to do this stuff. And they're so. . . . At least in the States. I know that they're very handcuffed by a lot of testing requirements. All that kind of stuff. And it sucks. But it's really. . . It's. . . You know. . . If there are ways to. . . Allow them to be more creative. And. . . And work with the kids. That would. . . You know. . . That's. . . I agree. That working within the schools is. . . Is great. If possible. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: I mean. . . Well. . . I think. . . So. . . Yeah. I. . . I feel like education reform is needed everywhere. But yeah. It's like. . . . At least I won't be able. . . . You know. . . Or at least. . . I don't think we'll be able to really just kind of. . . Be completely outside the system. So. . . I think. . . Right.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Dave Jones: I think. . . You know. . . Well. . . Even if you started. . . Even if you started an enrichment program. Or like an after school type of thing. Or like. . . You know. . . I got contextual electronics. Like. . . The baseline assumption is going to be. . . Yeah. Everyone's got that background of. . . Some kind of. . . You know. . . Formal. . . You know. . . Elementary. Middle. . .

Dave Jones: High school. Middle. . . Type of thing. And. . . And. . . You're going to be going against that. Right. So. . . So one of the things that I struggle with. Is like. . . People asking me. Well. . . How do I. . . How do I know. . . What my grade is. Or how do I know that I've passed. Oh. Yeah. That's. . . What a horrible. . . Right. And it. . . Like. . . But that's just. . . That's just. . . That's just. . . That's just how people are trained. It's. . . It's fine. And I'm like. . . . Well. . . . You know you've passed when your device works. When you show someone. . . You handed. . . You're the thing that you've been working on. And it works. And I don't care how you got there. Yeah. I'm going to show you how. But I don't care how you got there. But that doesn't scale at all. That's. . . That's the real problem. And all this stuff. It's all about scale. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean. . . Like. . . So. . . Well. . . I believe that. . . Like. . . Like. . . In Japan. . . The school system was created. In order to. . . . Train people. To work at factories. Right. Because Japan was a huge export nation. And then after World War II. They designed. . . The whole education system. Just. . . So that people can like. . . Be proper cogs. In like. . . The large machine. And then. . . And Japan had some big machines too. Like. . . Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Kawasaki. And. . . Yeah. Like all those huge corporations. I was just like. . . I mean like. . . Nakatomi. Right? But it's. . . Nakatomi. That sounds familiar. But. . . It's from Die Hard. Sorry. Oh. It's terrible. Oh. Okay. Fictional. Okay. Okay. Corporation. Bad pop culture reference. Yeah. Really bad. But. . . Yeah. I mean. . . So I think. . . That's why I feel like. . . You know. . . I feel like. . . It's unsuited for. . . Like. . The current. . . The current environment. And like. . . Most education systems aren't. Because like. . . The problem is like. . . The environment changed so rapidly. Right? Because like. . . Yeah. You know. Like information. . . I think. . . Because information is freely available. Like. . . Basically anybody with enough discipline. Can go out and learn anything they want.

Dave Jones: Yeah. But then again. . . It's also helpful to have other people. . . Supporting. . . And you know. . . Following along with you. Yeah. Yeah. People to bounce ideas off of. Yeah. It's. . . And doing that in person too. That's another thing that. . . I've always struggled with. I say from my basement. While I talk to someone in Japan.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. I. . .

Speaker ?: !

Chris Gammell: I hear you. I barely leave my lab actually. But. . . Yeah. Yeah. So. . . I don't know. I think it's. . . It's like. . . It's. . . It's going to. . . It's like a long protracted problem. But I. . . You know. . . I. . I am. . . I have a lot of hope. There's like a lot of people that see the value in like. . . Steam rather than STEM. Which is like kind of the art. Like adding the arts into the whole STEM thing. Yeah. And then. . . And I was. . .

Dave Jones: Like I said. . . I was against that at first. And now I'm. . . I'm totally. . . Totally see the light on that stuff. I mean. . . . On the arts? Yeah. I mean. . . . Just adding. . . Adding that creative aspect in there. You know. . . It's just. . . It is important. I think a lot of people rebel against it. Like. . . They're like. . . Oh. Well. . . It doesn't belong in that group. And it's like. . . Well. . . Okay. Sure. But. . . You know. . . Someone just doing math problems also doesn't. . . You know. . . There's no application there. A. . . It could be application. And art is the application of a lot of different things. Right? I mean. . . . I don't know. It's just. . . . There's. . .

Chris Gammell: I feel like. . . .

Dave Jones: People need to chill out. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I don't know. It's. . . Yeah. I. . . I feel like somebody just doing a lot of math problems by themselves all the time is also kind of like. . . I would call. . . Like. . . They sound like an artist to me also. So like. . . So. . You know. . . A number artist. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. . . It's like working. Because like. . . Because then. . . I would call a writer an artist. And like. . . A writer works with words. And like. . . . You know. . . And written. . . Written text. So. . . .

Dave Jones: I don't know. Yeah. I guess. . . I guess that's the thing. Anytime you try and define something like that. You know. . . Where it's like. . . Oh. . . Well. . . No. . . This is the group. And everybody else is outside of it. Type of thing. Oh. . . Yeah. It's like. . . You know. . . Well. There's. . . I think so much of this stuff is just the human nature aspect too. Where there's. . . You know. . . Organizations. There's power struggles within it. That kind of thing. Right? Like. . . . A lot of this education piece. There's an entrenched. . . . . A group that wants to keep things the way they are. And there's other people who want to try and change it. And everybody's kind of. . . You know. . . Battling back and forth. And it's just. . . Yeah. It's going to take time because. . . You have to try a lot of different things. So. . .

Chris Gammell: Okay. So. . . I have two other topics that I wrote on my Evernote notes. Like. . . Yes. Yes.

Dave Jones: We did have other ones. Yeah. They're sort of related I think.

Chris Gammell: Well. . . So. . . Yeah. So. . . One of them is hardware startups. And the other one is. . . . Depression. Especially in the technology. Like. . . . . Or in the tech industry. Right. So. . . I think. . . Hardware startups is more happy to talk about. So. . . Like. . . Maybe we should talk about that.

Dave Jones: Right. We'll end. . . We'll end on the sad thing. So. . . What about hardware startups? Because. . . I mean. . . We've. . . We've talked about that here. Some people complain about it. I don't really care. I think it's. . . I think it's. . . There's a lot of stuff going on in the space these days. There will be more stuff coming. What's. . . . What's your take on it?

Chris Gammell: I think. . . . Well. . . . I think it's great. I think there's. . . Because there's. . . Kind of renewed interest in. . . In hardware. Which is. . . Like. . . Amazing. And I think. . . A lot of that is being driven by. . . You know. . . Like. . . People are discovering. . . Like. . . The whole machine that's. . . Out in. . . Like. . . China and Shenzhen. And then. . . They just kind of. . . You know. And. . . And. . . Like. . . It's actually possible to make custom. . . Custom stuff. . . Custom hardware. Custom enclosures. Et cetera. And. . . . I also think SparkFun and Adafruit. Had a big. . . Had a big role in it. And. . . And also. I guess. Seed Studio too. Seed Studio. Like. . . Had a big role. Yeah. In kind of shaping. A lot of. . . Like. . . Kind of. . . The redefinition. Of. . . Of hardware. As something cool. I'd probably say. Adafruit. Like. . . I have a lot of respect for Lamore. And like. . . Everything that she's done. For. . . Yeah. Electronics. Oh yeah. For sure. So. . . Like. . . . But yeah. So the hardware startups. Is really interesting. Like. . . Like. . .

Dave Jones: What is it? So. . . Well you see this too. Because you. . . You consult with Media Lab. So you see. . . People coming out of that space. But then you also. . . You know. . . You've done tours. I think last time you were on. You were talked about. How you were. . . You and Bunny were given tours.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Well we. . . We run a whole. . . Kind of. . . Of. . . Manufacturing workshop. For. . . Media Lab. Out in Shenzhen. And like. . . This. . . This past year. Then we did it. For the workshop. And so we spent. . . Six weeks. . . Six weeks. In Shenzhen. With the students. And then. . . And then took them through. Like. . . So they. . . They actually. . . They actually had to do. . . Like. . . 3D solid design. Like. . . In SolidWorks. And then. . . We got the tooling made. For the injection molding. And then they. . . They had. . . We showed them. . . All the different types. Of injection molding. That they could do. So like. . . Like. . . Like. . . In mold lamination. Where. . . Where you can have. . . Actually designs. . . Like. . . Molded into the plastic. You know. Or like. . . Oh. Yeah. Or just like. . . Different finishes. Like. . . They had to choose their own finish. And they specify. . . Like. . . The ABS. Polycarbonate. Or. . . You know. . . Et cetera. Et cetera. And so like. . .

Dave Jones: Right. Right. Material types. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: And then. . . Yeah. So. . . So it's pretty. . . So yeah. So the manufacturing workshop is pretty interesting. But then yeah. So a lot of that. . . . Well. . . . The really interesting thing is that. Because as students. . . Like. . . They're just kind of. . . They haven't really. . . And especially at the Media Lab. They. . . You know. . . They're like in Utopia. And they're like. . . They haven't really been into the real world. And they. . . A lot of them. . . Like. . . They just didn't know that all this stuff existed. And like. . . That it's possible to do it all. And so like. . . Right. We took them to a bunch of different factories. Like. . . One was a mannequin factory. And like. . . To see how mannequins were made. And actually. . . That's creepy as hell. Yeah. It's super creepy. Actually. . . I'll send you some pictures. So you can post. Because I think. . . I think. . . Okay. Everyone will get a kick out of the pictures. But yeah. . . It was like. . . One of the. . . One of the girls worked with social robotics. And she was really interested in the mannequins. As like. . . A way to like. . . You know. . . Like. . Like. . I guess not humanize robots. But just like. . . You know. . . Like. . In. . .

Dave Jones: Get them out of the. . . Uncanny valley kind of thing. Or what? In application of that stuff.

Chris Gammell: But yeah. There's actually. . . . There's a lot of debate about uncanny valley. Because it's. . . It's not. . . It's not a proven thing. And so. . . It was like. . . One guy's conjecture on like. . . But. . . Anyways. . . That's like a different story. Yeah.

Dave Jones: That obviously is a. . . That is an elite group. That you were helping out. Media Lab is definitely. . . Some talented folks.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean. . . It was. . . It's because. . . It originally started because. . . Bunny and I. . . Had been. . . Like. . . We were actually. . . Drunk at a bar. . . In. . . Drunk at a bar in Tokyo. Like three years ago. And then. . . And then. . . And then he said. . . Oh it'd be really cool. We could just like. . . Kind of show. . . Show people like. . . Or show. . . Show students. What's going on. In Shenzhen. So that they like. . . Yeah. So they could benefit. And then like. . . That turned into the. . . First group of Media Lab tours. And then. . . . We thought that would be it. So we just did it once. And then it was over. But then it turned out to be a big hit. And so like. . . Two years later. Then they want. . . They're requesting. . . Or they're trying to do it like. . . Every year. Like regularly. Every year. It was interesting. Actually. I think someone from Stanford. . . Had contacted me. And they wanted to do something similar too. But it was just like. . . It's like too much. Getting rivalry. Yeah. Well. . . The problem is. . . If you do. . . Like. . . If you're like. . . You know. . . If you keep on going to factories. Then like. . . . The factory people will hate you. So like. . . . So you're going to order now? Yeah. Yeah. It's like. . . Where's our order? Oh. . . We just came to bring students. That's all. It's like. . . Yeah.

Dave Jones: Right. Right. Well. . . It could be a nice side business. Start charging per head. You know. . . Like an amusement park. Yeah. But actually. . . So what about people outside of that? I mean. . . So like. . . Obviously we have a lot of listeners. I mean. . . So. . . Like. . . How do they learn that stuff?

Chris Gammell: So this is really interesting. So my girlfriend had actually. . . . She started a publishing company. And. . . . . And she's publishing. . . Like her children's book first. So she found a print manufacturer in China. Like. . . Through Alibaba. And then she talked to them. They gave her a quote. The quote was like. . . Reasonable. I think it was like. . . So like. . . I'm going to give numbers too. It's like. . . It's. . . I think it was like around $2.40 per unit. In a quantity of a thousand. For a full offset printed. . .

Dave Jones: What's the. . .

Chris Gammell: Four color hardback.

Dave Jones: So. . . Sorry. What? What's. . . Yeah. What's a unit? Like a hundred page book or something? Or something? Or what is it?

Chris Gammell: It's like. . . I think. . . It was a. . . About a 50 page. . . Hardback book. Like full. . . Four color. Yeah. Like four color children's book. On coated paper. So. . . I've actually learned. . . Wow. Like a lot of my terminology now. So. . . And my book terminology. So she got. . . She got quoted. . . . Through Alibaba. She like. . . Had it done. And when the book came back. It was just horrible. Like the quality was just like. . . Crap. Well. . . No. Actually. . . So they sent her. . . They sent her. . . Digital proofs. So these are. . . Proofs of the book done. . . On a digital printer. But with like. . . The. . . You know. . . It's supposed to be a very close match. To like the final. . . The final. . . The final. . . Product. . . Which would be done on an offset printer. Yeah. And the proofs were beautiful. And the offset printing was horrible. And so. . . It was just like. . . Just like. . . So she got like. . . She got 500 units of crap. Like unsellable crap. And so. . .

Speaker ?: !

Chris Gammell: Like. . . Try and manufacture stuff in China. Is that they just think. . . Oh yeah. I can just go on Alibaba. And like. . . You know. . . And get something manufactured. Whereas. . . So wait. . . She did this without going.

Dave Jones: Is that correct? Or. . .

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So this was all. . . Like online. And. . . And. . . One of the things. That we like. . . Kind of. . . Like. . . Teach the students. Is that you have to be very hands-on. When you manufacture. And so like. . . . So the first thing I did. Is like. . . . I went to. . . . Like she lives in Hong Kong. So I went to Hong Kong. And then I took her across the border to Shenzhen. And then we went and visited the factory. Where the books got printed. And then. . . You know. . . Like I pretty much just bitched out the guy. Like. . . And then like. . . You know.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: And he was like. . . Kind of like. . . A low. . . Low sales guy. Like a low rung on the ladder. And I was like. . . You know. . . Where's your boss? You know. . . Like. . . I want to talk to your boss. Right. And that's like. . . . That's when they get freaked out. Because they think. . . Because their pay will get docked. Or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. So then. . . So then. . . Yeah. And then. . . So he. . . Like. . . We. . . And then. . . We looked. . . We did a tour of the factory. They had like. . . Just amazing equipment. They like. . . They print for people like. . . DK Publishing. And like. . . And National Geographic. Stuff like that. So. . . They had all their equipment. And then. . . I was like. . . So. . . You know. . . What the fuck happened then? Why. . . You guys have like. . . Amazing equipment. How did this happen? And it turns out. . . That what they do. . . Is for small orders. They outsource it. They outsource it to. . . A small print. . . Like. . . They outsource it to a small print shop. And then. . . They keep the margin. But the thing is. . . They didn't do quality checks. On the small print shop. So the small print shop. Was just like. . . You know. . . Crap. Did like. . . A rock bottom thing. And it's like. . . Oh. . . Sent it out. Hmm. Yeah. So like. . . I think. . . For. . . For. . . Like. . . For anybody that wants. . . To. . Like. . Manufacture it in China. Then. . . Like. . . It's not like just. . . You know. . . For Media Lab. Or whatever. It's pretty much. . . It's not that hard. So you. . . You can. . Like. . Come up with a list of factories. That you want to use. Or you want to like. . . Or you're interested in. You know. . . On Alibaba. And then. . . Get quotes from them. And like. . . . Kind of like. . . . Whittle down like. . . What you're interested in. And then. . . I think it's really important. That. . . Like. . . Once you talk. And you show interest. Then they'll be happy. To give you a tour. And so. . . I think if you're serious about. . . Doing some stuff. And you can like. . . And you have the. . . You know. . . And you can make it out to. . . Hong Kong or China.

Dave Jones: You're saying that's. . . That's a pretty big part of it though. Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Well you should go there. And meet the people involved. See the factory. And like. . . . Talk to them. And pretty much. . . I think that. . . It's important to have. . . Like. . . Kind of boots on the ground. Like. . . So like. . . You know. . . While your stuff is being manufactured. Like. . . Maybe. . . You know. . . Schedule it so that you're there. While your thing is being manufactured. And then like. . . You know. . . And then. . . You inspect it. And you receive it. . . On the spot. Yeah. Like. . . So then. . . And also. . . You never pay. . . The full amount up front. So you always. . . . You always pay like. . . . The final amount. After you accept the final copies. Right. Because like. . . You never know what kind of quality. You're going to get. Right.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But I mean like. . . Yeah. So I. . . I think. . . In terms of that. . . Like. . . The factory tours. Whatever. All that. It's like. . . It's actually really easy to set up. And so you just talk to a factory. And ask. . . Hey. I want to tour your factory. That's no problem.

Dave Jones: Do you consider yourself a hardware startup. Or no? I mean. . . . Freak Labs is. . . . Or isn't.

Chris Gammell: Ah. . . No. I don't know. I'm like. . . I'm like at kind of. . . A weird juncture. Or like. . . I think Freak Labs is. . . Kind of like. . . Just a lifestyle company. Is. . . And. . . But I. . . I feel like. . . I want to get more serious about it. Especially the sensor networks. Because now. . . I'm in a location. Where I can actually use all the stuff. So then. . . And then also like. . . You know. . . And I'd rather. . . Like. . . Like. . . I've given up consulting. And I just want to like. . . . Try to make my money. Yeah. Off of product sales.

Dave Jones: Right. Well like. . . . So what do you. . . What do you see. . . As the challenges. . . For people that are doing. . . Hardware startups. . . In the short term. I mean. . . I don't know. . . How many are. . . Audience. . . How much the audience. . . Is actually listening. . . Or thinking about it. But. . . I'm guessing. . . You know. . . There might be one or two people that are.

Chris Gammell: I think for a hardware startup. . . Let's see. I feel like. . . So. . . Well. . . I feel like it's extremely important. To at least work with someone else. Just as like. . . . . You know. . . . . But also. . . Like. . . The. . . I guess. . . Yeah. It's like. . . I guess. . . For a hardware startup. . . Like. . . There's a bunch of. . . There is a bunch of potholes. So the first one. . . The first one is just like. . . Getting the prototype working. And then after that. . . Like probably. . . Like. . . I think. . . The current route. . . Is to crowdfund. Your. . . Crowdfund. To get the initial. . . . Sales. Initial like funding. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Capital and everything.

Chris Gammell: So that like. . . . Yeah. For that part. . . I mean like. . . Like there's a whole. . . Like. . . Like there's a lot of marketing. That's involved there. Like. . . So you'll have to like. . . Just constantly be. . . You know. . . Putting out like. . . Like. . . Like. . . Posts. Articles. And then like. . . Kind of. . . You know. . . Like. . . Like. . . Hyping up. Whatever you're doing. While you're crowdfunding.

Dave Jones: Yeah. That part. . . That part really sucks. And especially. . . . From an engineering background. I have a lot of trouble with it. Like. . . Because it's like. . . I know. . . I know the weak points of this thing. How can I just. . . Laud all of the. . . All the fluffy stuff. What it could be doing someday. And. . . Yeah. It's. . .

Chris Gammell: It's tough. I think. . . That's actually. . . One of the. . . One of the things. That like. . . I think. . . So during. . . The last. . . Like. . . The last time. . . Like. . . Me and Bunny were in Shenzhen. And then together. Like. . . We were on a bus trip. Out to. . . One of the factories. And then we. . . We were talking with the other students. And the other students were like. . . You know. . . Oh. . . Like. . . I don't want to do it for money. I do it. Like. . . The pure love of whatever. And then. . . It was like. . . This whole conversation. On like. . . . Money shame. And how like. . . You know. . . A lot of. . . A lot of designers. Like. . . Are ashamed. About the fact that they. . . That they need money. Whereas. . . I think. . . You know. . . It's very. . . It's a very important part of like. . . You know. . . Like. . . Running a business. Like. . . Yeah. You need. . . Like. . . You need money to survive. And like. . . Margin. It's a thing folks. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like. . . . A lot of people. . . . Like. . . . Underprice themselves too much. Or they. . . Like. . . Or they don't value their own work. Or. . . You know. . . Just all that stuff. Whereas. . . I think. . . It's something that you have to learn. By getting bloody out. . . Out in the real world.

Dave Jones: By running out of money basically.

Chris Gammell: Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So like. . . I think. . . Almost everybody. . . I know. . . Has like. . . Has war wounds. From like. . . You know. . . Like. . . Doing business. Well. . . Actually. If you're in the industry long enough. You'll have like. . . . . Kind of. . . Battle wounds. Of all sorts. But. . . You know. . . But if you run your own company. Then you'll realize that. Yeah. Like. . . Money. . . Money. . . Or cash is like. . . Kind of. . .

Dave Jones: It sucks. But I mean. . . Like. . . Yeah. I know people that are. . . Well. . . I guess consultants usually are pretty. . . Are pretty cognizant of that kind of thing. Because you have to charge a lot more than you might think. It should be. Yeah. Yeah. But. . . Yeah. From a product standpoint too. Because of the. . . . You know. . . . It's easy to compare yourself to like a consumer level brand. And be like. . . Oh. Well that's. . . That thing. That widget's 60 bucks. And mine's kind of similar. It's like. . . Yeah. But. . . You know. . . You have to look at the whole thing. You know. . . Are you adding support? Are you adding. . . You know. . . Are you adding other things to it. That you could possibly charge more than you probably should. You know. . . Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Well. . . I mean. . . Like. . . Like. . . I think. . . Following. . . . Following the low price point. Is like. . . . One way to go. But then. . . Yeah. I. . . I. . . I feel like generally. . . That's. . . That's a dangerous route. Like. . . China. . . China. . . Like. . . Mainly plays that route. But then. . . That's because they have. . . Like. . . A lot of companies in China. Really have nothing else. They have no brand. They have like. . . No support. Mm-hmm. Have no like. . . You know. . . Very little English capability.

Dave Jones: Right. There might not be.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. And so like. . . . Whereas I think. . . . You know. . . . Like. . . . Like. . . If you design something. . . Then it. . . Then like kind of. . . Educate. . . Educating people on how to use your product. Um. . . Let's see. Like. . . Documentation. Support. Mm-hmm. Forums. Like. . . Actually I'm getting much more active on my forums. Like. . . I was kind of. . . I was really bad for a while. So like. . . Like. . . Like. . . Like. . . All that stuff is really important too. And I think if you have. . . . If you have a product that provides value to people. Then they'll be willing to pay for that value.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I agree. I agree. But yeah. It's tough. Especially when you're. . . You're doing a lot of. . . Comparisons. Right. I mean. . . When you're. . . Comparing yourself to other. . . Other companies. Other people. It's. . . Like. . . Oh. . . I should. . . Just do what they're doing. And. . . Nah. Not necessarily. You gotta. . . You gotta. . . Definitely.

Chris Gammell: Uh. . . That's. . . That's. . . A bit tough. Like. . . I. . . Like. . . I'm at the point where. . . Like. . . I guess I've been around technology enough. That like. . . I. . . I kind of know. . . Like. . . Where I want to go. And stuff. But I think a lot of people are still trying to figure out what they want to do. Yeah. But yeah. I guess for the other thing. Like. . . So. . . But I would say for hardware startups. The big. . . The big. . .

Chris Gammell: The big challenge is always manufacturing. So. . . Like. . . Because a lot of people are really good at building. Like. . . You know. . . One or two. Or ten of something. But then. . . If you need to build like. . . . A hundred. To a thousand. To a couple thousand. Then it's just completely different. I. . . I. . .

Dave Jones: Have experience with that. And. . . I have some late nights. You know. . . That's what it usually comes down to. Is the late nights.

Chris Gammell: So you did the. . . Because I think for. . . The Hackaday. . . For the Hackaday Supercon. Then you also did a board for them. Right? For like. . . For the Supercon. Oh yeah. I did the badge. That was just a PCB though. Yeah. Oh. Okay.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Oh. It was a blank PCB? It wasn't an assembled one? Oh. Okay. Right.

Dave Jones: I was thinking about trying to squeeze a. . . You know. . . An assembled thing in there. And then at the last minute. It was like. . . Well. . . We could make this a. . . Why not let other people put stuff on there? And then it turned into badge hacking. And that worked out okay. So. . . Oh yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. The Supercon was amazing. Especially the amount of time that you guys worked. The. . . The time constraints you guys worked to put it together.

Dave Jones: Thanks man. Yeah. It was. . . It wasn't just me. It was Sophie. And we had a lot of other people.

Chris Gammell: Oh yeah. Yeah.

Dave Jones: Helping out. So. . . . It was crazy.

Chris Gammell: So Sophie is. . . She just. . . She takes charge. Man. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like she. . . I mean just put a whip in her hand. She's like. . . Whoops. Whoops.

Dave Jones: Akiba said it. So if you're listening. It was Akiba that said that.

Chris Gammell: I love you Sophie. I just. . . You know. . . You know I love you. I'm just saying. He's just saying he's afraid of you. You can. . . I'm saying that too I guess. Yeah. You can whip me with that writing crop any day. But you know. . . . Just like. . . .

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But yeah. . . Yeah. It was. . . That was amazing. That was an amazing event.

Dave Jones: So you had one other topic you wanted to talk about. Oh. . . Yeah. Yeah. On your Evernote. Because you're getting. . . You're getting organized. 2016 is the year of organization.

Chris Gammell: Oh. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So I think. . . Because we were talking about this offline a bit. But yeah. Like. . . Like. . . Yeah. Depression in technology. And I think that's kind of an important thing too. Because nobody really talks about that. Like. . . . But I think. . . . Yeah.

Dave Jones: There's people here. There. Like. . . Like I mentioned to you before the show. Like. . . I think Mitch Altman. And Jimmy Rogers. I think they had a group that was kind of talking about that stuff. I think that especially around. . . Like. . . When. . . When Aaron. . . Aaron Schwartz committed suicide. I think that was. . . Definitely one of the prompts for that kind of thing. Just because. . . Obviously he was pretty depressed. When that happened.

Chris Gammell: I feel like. . . I feel like it's kind of pervasive. In. . . I mean. . . Not just the tech industry. But like. . . . Just. . . Like. . . . From. . . Speaking from within the tech industry. I think like depression is. . . Is fairly pervasive. And like. . . You know. . . There's. . . You know. . . In my opinion. . . I think there's a couple of factors. Like. . . I suffered from depression for like. . . You know. . . I think I'm just coming out of it recently. So. . .

Chris Gammell: I kind of stopped doing a lot of. . .

Chris Gammell: All my. . .

Speaker ?: Like. . .

Chris Gammell: Like. . . My blog. And all that stuff. But. . . And now I'm just getting back into it. But. . . . I think. . . I think. . . Like. . . One thing is that like. . . For technology people. . . You pretty much just spend a lot of time in your head. So like. . . You know. . . You're like. . . You're. . . You're thinking about. . . You know. . . Like. . All these different factors. But they all exist in your head. So you're spending a lot of time. Just like kind of. . . Not doing physical stuff. But you're spending a lot of time. Just. . . Working things out mentally. But then also. . . There's like this treadmill of technology. That keeps on moving forward and forward. And like. . . If you want to stay current. Then you just constantly have to like. . . Like. . . Constantly have to. . . Study. . . And stay on top of things. Like. . . The programming language.

Dave Jones: It's like a feeling of inadequacy almost. Right? Like. . . Where it's like. . . I. . I don't know the newest things. I'm. . . I'm not caught up. That kind of feeling. Right?

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. And then like. . . And then you hear about all these other people. That are doing all these other. . . . Like. . . Kind of interesting things. Using like. . . . You know. . . The shiny new. Like. . . Shiny new language. Like. . . I don't know. It's like the latest flavor of JavaScript framework. Or something like that. And then like. . . Kind of. . . I don't know. So like. . . It's just like. . . It's like a constant treadmill.

Dave Jones: And so like. . . Yeah. I mean. . . I think social media definitely exposes that too. Where you're like. . . Oh. . . Wow. They're doing more things. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So it's. . . Ben Krasnow. Yeah. Ben. I think. . . That guy.

Chris Gammell: He's doing some crazy stuff. Like. . . His stuff is really fun to watch. It's so much fun. I love it. Yeah. Me. . . Me. . . When I was. . . Like. . . Oh. . . Yeah. Anyways. That could be a whole different short topic. But yeah. Yeah. But yeah. All the science stuff. It's like. . . But yeah. I mean. . . It's just like. . . I don't think. . . I just feel like nobody really talks about it. But I. . . I think there's always this feeling of like. . . . You know. . . Oh. . . I'm not good enough. I'm not good enough. And like. . . Even. . .

Dave Jones: Well. . . You mentioned that you and Bunny were talking about that too. And I. . . I said. . . You. . . Akiba and Bunny are talking about not feeling adequate. And. . . Like. . . I'm sure there are people listening right now being like. . . Yeah. Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. I mean. . . Because it's just like. . . It's just a constant. . . It's a constant thing. Like. . . The march of. . . You know. . . The march of everything. Software. Hardware. Etc. And so like. . . It's just. . . This constant treadmill. And like. . . . You know. . . . All of us are just like. . . Running on it. Like. . . You know. . . Like. . . Right now. . . Like. . . I think. . . In. . . In hardware. . . Like. . . Things are moving towards like. . . Kind of really cheap quad-core processors. Running Android and stuff. So like. . . That's kind of. . . And then. . . So like. . . If you're not designing hardware. With a quad-core processor. Like. . . And then porting Android over to it. Then maybe you're not adequate. Or something like that. Which is like. . . .

Chris Gammell: Right. It's like. . . . A huge. I'm still trying to learn off-amps, man. Yeah. You know. I just learned the LED thing. Yeah. But like. . . Yeah. But like. . . But at the same time. . . I feel like a lot of that is like. . . You know. . . Especially coming. . . Like going through. . . Going through a lot of it. And like kind of. . . You know. . . Just going through depression. Through a lot of personal stuff. Like a lot of that is just like. . . Really just in your head. And so. . . Yeah. And it's just like. . . . Just comes like. . . . I feel like for me personally. . . It just came from like. . . Kind of my. . . Like. . . Confidence issues that I had. . . As like kind of. . . Growing up. . . That I never fully addressed. And so they just kind of. . . Manifested themselves.

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: But I'm pretty sure. . . Like. . . Like. . . It's. . . That. . . It's just kind of a pervasive thing. That everybody has. Like. . . Like. . . Everybody. . . Like. . . Goes through times when. . . I think they have lapses in confidence. And I think it's normal.

Dave Jones: Yeah. I agree. And well. . . . . . So when. . . . A couple shows ago. And Dan and Michael were on the show. And we were talking about. . . Kind of like. . . More of the beginner side of things. Especially. And just like the importance of mindset. And like. . . You know. . . Yeah. You just kind of. . . It feels like. . . When you're starting out. Especially. You're just like. . . Looking at everything. And you're looking at what people are doing online. It's just like. . . I will never do that. And that's not true though. Because everybody started. . . . Somewhere. You know. Yeah. Just like. . . . You gotta. . . .

Dave Jones: You gotta stick with it. And honestly. . . . I think it's just about. . . Enjoying. . . Finding and enjoying. . . The small victories. That is such a big piece of it. You know. . . Get. . . You know. . . Getting those. . . Those dopamine squirts. To be like. . . All right. I'm gonna try the next thing. You know. . . And I'll try. . . I'll try the next thing. And then. . . Yeah. Trying to just kind of. . . Keep your head down. And enjoying the. . . Like I remember. . . A friend. . . Was doing. . . It's a 6502 project. Uh-huh. And it was. . . It was a while ago. And I was just like. . . Well. . . Why are you doing that? And he's like. . . You know. . . I just enjoy it. I just like being able to. . . Simple instruction set. Stuff like that. And I kind of just. . . I was like scoffed. And I was like. . . Wow. Whatever. But then. . . You know. . . Like. . . That. . . Gives you confidence. On the low level. . . . Programming side of things. And you know. . . That. . . It has all these. . . Unintended effects. Just because. . . He was just having fun with it. You know. And then he became. . . A better. . . Assembly programmer. Better seed program. All these things. That were just because. . . He was having fun.

Chris Gammell: Like. . . I've known a lot of people. That. . . Weren't like super technical. Or technically proficient. You know. And that. . . You know. . . That were probably. . . Like in terms of like. . . Say electronics or programming. We're at a beginner level. But they just came up with. . . . Amazing projects. And then. . . Yeah. I think it's really. . . Kind of. . . So the first thing is. . . I think it's important to be part of a. . . Community. Where like. . . You don't have to. . . You know. . . Where you have somebody to ask. If you don't know how to do something. So like. . . That'd be like your hackerspace. Or whatever. Like kind of. . . Fab lab. Makerspace.

Dave Jones: And then. . . Maybe even online. Right? I mean like honestly. Like that. . . Oh yeah. That can. . . If you. . . . I mean if you're remote. Sometimes that's all you have.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Like active on forums. Yep. And then. . . I think. . . I think that's important. And the other thing is. . . Like. . . Like. . . I've seen a lot of projects. Which are like. . . Like just purely technical. And like. . . You know. . . I think the level of. . . Like. . . Like. . . The. . . Technically. . . It's like an amazing project. And it's like. . . Wow. You know. . . You could write like. . . Like scientific papers. Off of that project. But then they're just not very interesting. Whereas. . . . I think like. . . I think the most interesting things. Are like. . . Something that kind of. . . Strikes a chord with people. Like. . . Like my. . . One of my most. . . One of my most. . . One of the most popular products. That I designed. Was just like. . . Kind of a. . . A solar lantern. That. . . That people can just solder. Together themselves. And then it just like. . . And then as soon as they're done soldering it. They like. . . Stick the rechargeable battery in. And then. . . And then it works. And then they're just like. . . Oh my god. It works. It works. And like. . . Yeah.

Dave Jones: And like. . .

Chris Gammell: It's like. . . Really? Have you seen these radios? Come on folks. Jeez. So. . . I. . . I think that like. . . Yeah. There's like this misnomer. That like. . .

Speaker ?: You know. . .

Chris Gammell: Technical complication. Equals. . . Equals. . . Equals good. Which I think is like. . . Is untrue. And then. . . That's. . . That's another thing that like. . . Me and Buddy discussed. Which is that we're like. . . Kind of tired of. . . Technically complex things. And we're more interested in. . . Things that like. . . Kind of like. . . That. . . That. . . Might not be. . . Might not be complex. But like. . . Cross different domains. And like. . . Or. . . Oh yeah. Or a twist. . . . A twist on something that you would have never. . . . Never thought before.

Dave Jones: Right. Well. . . And there's so many problems to solve for like. . . So. . . What would be an example of that for you?

Chris Gammell: Well. . . Right now. . . I'm. . . I'm helping my girlfriend. . . With her publishing company. And we're doing like. . . A line of. . . Experimental. . . Experimental books. Which would. . . Which are going to be like. . . Interactive. And we'll be. . . Introducing. . . Electronics into the pages. So. . . One of them will be like. . . Like. . . We're working with Ji Chi. She's the one that did. . . Oh yeah. It's the Chibitronics, right? Yeah.

Dave Jones: She worked with Bunny on those stickers that basically light up and everything, right? Yeah. Conductive tape.

Chris Gammell: Well. . . She wrote a children's book. And the children's book has like. . . LEDs. And like. . . Like. . . Like. . . Has LEDs. And some. . . And some control. In it. And then I think. . . And my girlfriend also writes children's books. But then we're also like. . . So right now I'm experimenting with. . . Like having. . . Not only like. . . LED output. But like kind of. . . Like pressure sensitive inputs. So using. . . Piezo. . . Like flat piezo discs. Mm-hmm. And then so that if you blow on a candle. . . Then it'll go out or light up. Or something like that.

Dave Jones: Oh really? That's awesome.

Chris Gammell: Then. . . Yeah. And so the next phase. . . Then I think. . . I'm. . . We're. . . Planning on putting. . . So there's three things I'm really interested in. One is like a digital voice recorder. So that like. . . So that you can embed into the back of the book. And so like. . . Mm-hmm. For a children's book. . . Then. . . So my girlfriend does choose your own adventure books. And so like. . . Awesome. I love those. Oh yeah. Those are so much fun. It's a choose your own adventure children's book. But then I think the interesting thing would be. . . If there was like a voice recorder. . . Then like the parents would be able to record their own voices. On like. . . You know. . . For certain things. Like if a child chooses something. And they open a page. And it's like. . . No, no, no. That's not. . . You know. And then like. . . Take the trash out. Yeah. It's their parents voice. I think that's kind of interesting.

Dave Jones: Yeah. That would be cool.

Chris Gammell: The other one is. . . Like. . . Embedding NFC coils into the pages. And then having like a set of cards. Where like each card can represent like different. . . . . Different like morals.

Dave Jones: Or different characters that they use. That's like how you choose the adventure basically. Is that the idea?

Chris Gammell: Um. . . Something like that. Then. . . Then you start blurring the line between gaming. . . Like kind of. . . Gaming and books. But it. . . But you know. . . Which I think I'm totally fine with. But then it's like a. . . You know. . . Because then you start having it interactive. As long as. . . I'm trying to avoid introducing another screen into a child's life. That's like my thing.

Dave Jones: Yeah. That's good. I know.

Chris Gammell: And then. . . . Yeah. And then the other thing that I. . . . . I'm curious about. Is adding. . . Is adding. . . Memory. . . Memory to the books. So then. . . Based on your previous choices. Then the book will start to take on. . . Like. . . Will start to be representative of like. . . That child's like. . . Morality. Or like. . . String of choices. So what. . . You know. . .

Dave Jones: Am I hearing that the. . . Artificial intelligence revolution is going to show up as books? Is that what I'm hearing?

Chris Gammell: Well I'm just. . . I'm curious. Like to see. . . Like. . . How that would work out. Where if you had like a book. And then like. . . . ! . . Your previous actions. Then maybe. . . The current. . . The current choices. Or the current like. . . Kind of. . . Things that are available. Will. . . Be affected. So you know. So. . . I feel like that. . . That gets really interesting. But then that gets. . . That gets into like. . .

Chris Gammell: Where. . .

Chris Gammell: You know. . .

Chris Gammell: Because it's not. . . Like we. . . Actually we had a discussion about publishing. I mean my girlfriend. And then like. . . How the publishing industry. Seems like it's dying. But then I think it's really. . . Or our conclusion was that. . . It's actually kind of just. . . It needs to come in a different form. And so. . .

Dave Jones: Yeah.

Chris Gammell: So we're just like. . . Kind of playing around with that. And seeing like. . . If there's. . . If there's anything interesting. . . That can come out of it.

Dave Jones: Right. Well and it'll be a test also. As. . . If it does come in a different form. Are people willing to pay. . . Pay the difference. When they're used to paying. . . Five dollars for children's book. Will they be willing to pay. . . Fifty or whatever. That ends up costing.

Chris Gammell: Children's books don't cost five dollars. They cost like. . . Fifteen to twenty dollars. And you know. No way. Wait. How old are we saying here? Oh. I think for like. . . I have a two-year-old nephew.

Dave Jones: I bought like a five-year. . . . Five dollar book. Come on.

Chris Gammell: Oh really? Like. . . . Which is like. . . Like a Miss Sunshine book. Or like kind of a. . .

Dave Jones: Yeah. Like a little thin. I mean it wasn't much to it. Oh okay.

Chris Gammell: I'm talking about like kind of. . . They have like the really. . . There's like a whole children's book scene. And like they're. . . They do like just really beautiful. . . Really beautifully illustrated hardback books. And like. . . No. We're even like. . . We're even considering going to like. . . There's a children's book fair in like Milan. There's like a huge thing.

Dave Jones: Business trip. Yeah. Yeah. We had to go to Milan. It was tough. It was tough.

Chris Gammell: I don't think. . . I don't think. . . I don't think I'm going to. . . But. . .

Dave Jones: It would be a hike for you guys.

Chris Gammell: But. . . Anyways. . . I think. . . But that'd be like an example of like. . . Say. . . Like. . . Like taking something. . . Taking something. . . And adding like a twist. . . A variation on it. Through some simple technology.

Dave Jones: Right. The cap. . . Yeah. Exactly. The cap. . . Capacitive button is not necessarily. . . . You know. . . You're not reinventing the wheel there. But you're using it in a novel way. That would be the interesting thing. And does it actually strike a chord with people? Yeah.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Like would it enhance. . . Like. . . Would it enhance the quality of the experience? Or. . . You know. . . Would it not? It's like. . . It's really difficult to say. But I think it's. . . Yeah. It's important to try it out and test it. And like. . . You know. . . Even if it doesn't work out. We might learn something. . . Different along the way. That like we can explore.

Dave Jones: Mm-hmm. Right. Yeah. That natural application of technology. Pretty cool. That's a good idea.

Chris Gammell: I mean like. . . Yeah. So then. . . If you look at Bunny's stuff. Then like. . . You know. . . He went through the same thing with Chibitronics. And like doing circuit stickers. So. . . On one hand. . . He's building his own laptop from scratch. On the other hand. . . He's building like circuit stickers. That you can like put down and light an LED. And I think that's like kind of. . . It's really interesting. That like. . . He chose like that path also.

Dave Jones: All these. . . So we. . . One of the other things that you and I were talking about. . . Before the show. . . Was just kind of the. . . The imposter syndrome. You hadn't heard that term. But the. . . Basically it's the idea of. . . That you don't feel. . . Like I feel this a lot where I'm talking to guests. Like you. And I'm like. . . I don't know as much as this person. You know. It's just like. . . . I shouldn't be here. That kind of feeling of. . . . It's kind of. . . . I feel like it's another. . . You know. . . It's kind of related to the. . . The depression thing around. . . You know. . . With the technical. . . It's like I'm not good enough. Or I don't know enough. That kind of thing. It's a lot of. . . There's a lot of ego in the technical side of things. And. . . It's tough. . . Tough to get out of that mindset.

Chris Gammell: Somehow. . . Like somewhere along the way. The technology industry. . . Became like kind of. . . You know. . . Like all the jocks moved into technology. Or something. And so. . . It's like. . . I was like. . . . Oh yeah. I can do this. You know. Blah blah blah blah. I can write this web server. In three lines of code. Or something like that. And then like. . . And then. . . It's became like. . . Very like. . . Testosterone driven. Like the tech industry. And then. . . I feel like. . . That's also. . . What like. . . Turns off. Like a lot of. . . Like. . . Like. .

Chris Gammell: What turns off. A lot of people. Especially like females. Like. . . To the industry. Is like. . . You know. That it's just. . . . There's so much. Like. . . . Kind of.

Dave Jones: Stuff bugs the crap out of me. Honestly. It's like. . . You know. . . Sometimes you don't know stuff. And it's okay. That's. . . Okay. In fact. It's probably because you know. Something else that you could share. I don't know. I just. . . I don't. . . I don't like the ego stuff.

Chris Gammell: I think a lot of it. . . A lot of it. . . Comes. . . Via. . Like. . Kind of the. . . Was it. . . The. . . What is it. . . The hero syndrome. Like. . . You know. . . Like. . . I'm the hero. That's come to save the day.

Dave Jones: Right.

Chris Gammell: It's just like a lot of like. . . Lone wolf people. Like. . . People working by themselves. And like. . . They just think that they can do everything themselves. I think that's where a lot of it comes from. And those people are probably the most celebrated in technology. Whereas. . . When you actually need to get things done though. It's all like. . . Collaborative. And comes. . . Right. Like. . . From like. . . Working in groups. And working on projects together. And I think that's probably the most important. . . Skill to have. In. . . Like. . . In the tech industry. Like. . . I think the most important thing to have. Is like. . . Like. . . Being able to work in a group scenario. And being able to collaborate. And even being open to collaboration.

Dave Jones: Right. That involves communication. And not being an a-hole. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I mean. . . There's a lot of like. . .

Chris Gammell: There's a lot of subtleties. One of them is like. . . Yeah. Not being an asshole. It's like. . . Yeah. Right. But. . . Yeah. But yeah. I mean like. . . . I feel like. . . . Like. . . Intellect is probably the. . . Like. . . . One of the last things. Like. . . You know. . . Most people. . . Can work their way around. . . Like. . . Python. Or like. . . Java. Or C. . . Or C++. Something like that. Or. . . Or. . . Electronics. And then when you work in a group scenario. Like. . . You don't even have to be like. . . Super smart. You know. . . There's other people. That can like. . . Back you up. And I think. . . But it's just. . . The problem is. . . I think in the tech media. They don't really focus too much on teams. They focus on the individual. Like. . . . . Oh. . . You know. . . Elon Musk. Is the Iron Man. Of blah, blah, blah, blah. Right. And he. . . Right. Right.

Dave Jones: And he. . . Yeah. When's the last time he put an op-amp together? Right.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And then like. . . Or Mark Zuckerberg. And stuff. Like. . . They just focus on the individual. I think it's just because it's easier. And so. . . All these people are just trying to emulate these. . . These guys. Who are like. . . Actually assholes. Like Steve Jobs was an asshole. And like. . . . You know. . . But. . . . But in reality. . . Like. . . Like. . . Great things happen from collaboration. Like. . . Apple didn't happen because of Steve Jobs. It was because of Steve Jobs and Steve Wozniak. And then. . . The subsequent team of everyone else behind them. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So then like. . . So. . . But it's just like the technical media. And I think that. . . Like. . . That drives a lot of. . . Like. . . This whole. . . Like. . Yeah. I guess the. . . Comparison culture. Yeah. Yeah. The. . . Yeah. Comparison. And also the imposter syndrome. Because everybody's like measuring themselves up to like. . . Mark Zuckerberg or something.

Dave Jones: So how do we. . . How do we make sure that we don't fall into that?

Chris Gammell: Like. . . I don't know. But like. . . How. . . How I do it is like. . . Like. . . Is. . I work. . Like. . . I have. . . You know. . . Because I live out here on a farm. I have. . . I have the community here. Of just like. . . Amazing.

Dave Jones: Move to the middle of nowhere. With fiber.

Chris Gammell: Fiber connection. No. I mean. . . That's not what I mean. I mean. . . . I think it's just like. . . . It's important to be like. . . In a positive community. And then. . . Mm-hmm. And also. . . And collaborate on projects. Or work with people that are open to collaboration. Like. . . You don't. . . So like. . . Practice collaboration basically. Like you need to like. . . Or just like. . . Like collaboration as a skill. I mean. . . I don't know if you need to practice it. But I think like. . . You know. . . If like. . . Actually being a. . . Being a positive community. That like. . . That's constantly doing projects. Like interesting projects. That would be like your hackerspace. Or makerspace. Yeah. And then. . . . Yeah. Like in a makerspace. I think. . . Like. . . One guy. . . Like. . . One asshole. That's like. . . You know. . . I'm the most. . . I'm the smartest guy. In this. . . In this place. You know. . . I'm like a genius motherfucker. And then like. . . Then. . . Is normally not. . . Is normally not tolerated. Sorry. I said the MF word. But. . . So. . . But. . .

Dave Jones: So it happens when you move to the country folks. You get vulgar.

Chris Gammell: You get vulgar. Yeah. Yeah. I'm like. . . . I'm a hick. Yee-haw. But. . . Yeah. I think. . . I think it's important. Like. . . Nothing really comes. . . Like. . . Just working. . . Nothing. . . Super interesting comes working alone. Mostly really interesting things come by working in groups. And I think like. . . One of the best ways to avoid. . . Like. . . The whole. . . Like. . . Comparison or whatever. Is. . . Like. . . Rather than compare it. . . You know. . . It's just to like. . . Work in a group. Like. . . You know. . . It's. . . You know. . . Like. . . . If you're in a positive group. Then you don't need to compare yourself. To like. . . The other person in the group. Then you guys are just trying to work. . . To. . To achieve a common goal. Of getting your project to work. I think that's the most important.

Dave Jones: The LED blinking on at the end.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Yeah. It's a joy shared by all. That's important. That's important. That's an important first step. The LED.

Dave Jones: Amen.

Chris Gammell: So. . . Anyways. Yeah. I. . . I don't know. I don't have like. . . I don't have. . . I don't have like. . . Hard answers. Especially to. . . . The whole question of like. . . . I guess. . . . The imposter syndrome. Which I just learned about. Comparison. And also like. . . All depression. And. . . In technology. But I think. . . One of the ways around it. Is just to be. . . In a positive community. I think that just does. . . Huge wonders.

Dave Jones: Yeah man. It's. . . Well. . . I mean. . . You said you spend a lot of time in the lab. But you do have that. . . Hacker farm that. . . You guys are getting big too. There's a lot of people out there now.

Chris Gammell: Oh. I think. . . . Yeah. It's about 12 people. And then. . . . It's kind of interesting. Because like. . . . . Even though. . . Like I say I don't leave my lab. But actually people. . . Keep like. . . Constantly drop by. And then. . . So. . . It's like. . . Oh. . . The drop-in. Huh? Like in Seinfeld? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Like. . . No. . . Like. . . Hello? Are you busy? It's like. . . Oh. . . Okay. Yeah. Come on in. Let's hang out. So. . . So. . . But. . . Yeah. It's. . . It's pretty nice. I don't know. I feel like. . . . Well. . . . Anyways. . . . I'm not one to give advice on all that kind of stuff. But I. . . I can share my own experience. That's pretty much the best I can do.

Dave Jones: No. And I think that. . . I mean. . . That's. . . It's really. . . It's an enviable situation to have. . . Like-minded people kind of living and working together. It's. . . That's really. . . Really. . . It's the dream. I think it's the dream. I. . . That's. . . I mean. . . I have some people in town here. And I see them about once a month. But. . . . Man. . . . That keeps me going. You know. Just being able to sit down and talk about our stuff. And support each other. And. . . You know. . . Talk about what we're working on.

Chris Gammell: I think you need to move to the countryside in Japan. And like. . . Like. . . And by the way. . . I think we just had. . . Had a house open up around here. Just saying. Just saying.

Dave Jones: Okay. All right. Well. . .

Chris Gammell: Just throwing it out there.

Dave Jones: Maybe 2016. So. . . You are going to release some products in 2016. I may move to the Japanese countryside. Yeah. That'd be cool. Any other thoughts for 2015? As we close out the year?

Chris Gammell: 2015.

Dave Jones: Uh. . .

Chris Gammell: I. . . Let's see. I don't. . . I don't know. I just know. Yeah. There's like. . . There's just. . . Like. . I think. . . I've tried to stop reading. And like. . . Listening to news. Because there's so much crap on it. That's just horrible. Like. . . All the ISIS. And the refugees. And all that. And it's like. . . Yeah. So. . . I don't know. But I. . . . Like. . . I have hope for the future. And I think. . . The future is. . . Going to be wonderful. So. . . That's like. . . That's. . . That's my story. And I'm sticking to it. So. . . 2016 will be a wonderful year for everybody.

Dave Jones: Nice. I like that. Head down. But. . . What is the. . . There's a. . . There's a roots. . . There's a roots lyric. Do you listen to the roots at all?

Chris Gammell: Uh. . . I. . I. . Let's see. I listen to their old stuff. But then. . . They're pretty. . . They're always like. Pretty cutting edge. I like the fact they always use like live. . . Live. . . Instruments.

Dave Jones: Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's from. . . Sacrifice. Nose to the grind. . . Nose to the grindstone. Head to the stars. I was like that.

Chris Gammell: That's awesome. I'm gonna. . . I'm gonna. . . Yeah. I'm gonna make a t-shirt with that.

Dave Jones: Yeah. With. . .

Chris Gammell: With a. . . A logo. Nose to the grindstone. Head to the stars.

Dave Jones: All right, man. I have an announcement for next week. Next week. It's going to be. . . . Me and Alicia and Chris. We'll be doing a call-in show. Alicia. The call-in will. . . Alicia. From like embedded. . . Embedded FM. Mm-hmm.

Chris Gammell: Oh, really? Yeah. Oh, nice.

Dave Jones: So Alicia and Chris White will be. . . So it'll be January 6th. We'll start at 5 p.m. PST. That's 8 p.m. EST. And we'll put a link in the show. Wow. To find your local time.

Chris Gammell: Nice. Nice. So like anybody can call in? Like I can call in?

Dave Jones: Yeah. Well, actually we're gonna be doing it like last time. We're. . . . There will be. . . . There will be a post. . . I'll link to a post we're gonna create. But basically it's gonna email us and we'll Skype with people. It'll be a little bit more.

Chris Gammell: Can I do like the. . . Chopped up. The Jerky Boys call in and then meet me and some friends and we take on different persona?

Dave Jones: I like it. Yeah. Go for it, man. It might be tough if you're emailing me beforehand and I'm, you know, calling your Skype name. I might figure that one out. Oh, okay. Yeah. Sorry. That wouldn't work. That would be a little tougher.

Chris Gammell: Sure. Yeah. I could try to pretend like, I'm an 80-year-old woman trying to learn JavaScript.

Dave Jones: Well, you know what? We would encourage that.

Chris Gammell: So. . . Oh, okay. Yeah. So it sounds like an. . . The next show sounds really awesome. Like. . . Like. . . Especially I like the fact that you're like doing it in collaboration with like. . . Like Embedded FM.

Dave Jones: Yeah. Yeah. Well. Love talking to everybody. So thanks for being on the show this week and happy new year.

Chris Gammell: Yeah. Happy new year to you too. And thanks for having me. So. . . No problem, man. Have a great 2016 to you and to everybody out there. And I hope. . . I hope that it's nice.

Dave Jones: All right. We'll talk to everyone soon.

Chris Gammell: Okay.

Dave Jones: All right.

Chris Gammell: See you.

Chris Gammell: See you.

Speaker ?: See you. See you.

Dave Jones: See you.